Quality?

[dazedgonebye]

I'm trying to decide what to do about MF.
I've currently got a Balda 6x6 and a Moskva 5.
The one roll of film I got back from the balda is just dismal. Either the rangefinder is way off or the lens is just not up to snuff. I think it's not the rangefinder, because I was shooting landscapes stopped down and something somewhere should have accidentaly been in focus.
The Moskva is better...except for the light leaks I talk about in another thread.
The two shots below are from the usable part of the negative (not destroyed by the light leak). The detail is a 100% crop.
The Moskva has a couple of other problems though. The focus sticks in one spot and the double exposure prevention is not working properly. I have to use the trip on the shutter instead of the button on the camera.

The seller of the Moskva has offered another copy. Of course, I'll be out shipping both ways on the copy I have, which is almost as much as the camera itself. I'm thinking of pressing for a full refund, but I don't know how far I'll get.

All of this is rather frustrating. I'd hoped for reasonable quality MF in a folder and it is just so hit and miss! I could buy a better and recently CLA'd folder from certo6 on ebay, but the better ones go for a couple of hundred dollars. Money that could go towards a more modern MF RF solution.

On the other hand, most modern MF RF sollutions are $500 + (with most being WAY ++++).

I'm beginning to think I'm wasting my time and money in this direction.

Any ideas or suggestions?

 

[Little Prince]

You *may* be able to score an older Fuji RF (6x7 or 6x9) with normal lens or one of the fixed-lens Fuji RFs (again 6x7 or 6x9) for less than $500. The owners of these cameras vouch for their performance and reliability often. No meter though, if I remember right. Big and heavy too.

There are 6x4.5 variants too. I have an AF version. The AF bothers me, to tell the truth. The GS645 (or GS645S) may be a good choice. There is a GS645S on KEH right now for $364 (in EX condition). Don't buy anything without doing your own research though.

 

[dnk512]

I read about many people getting great results with old folders, but I also read about many getting poor results with them. I have several folders. All are fun to use but none is as sharp as my Minolta Autocord or my Yashica 124G. There are several TLRs in the sub $100 category that will out-perform any low end folder. TLRs will be more reliable than the high end folders, too. Both focusing harness and winding mechanism. Look into Autocords and Yashicas with Yashinon (not Yashikor). Note #1: Buy for best condition. #2 Autocords are great, but many have the focusing lever snap. #3 Any old camera will need some work done on it to function at its best. Plan on a CLA, too.

 

[sf]

I've seen some of those Bessa IIs on that auction site and they look good. Nice lenses. Probably better than the Moskva - but that is only my opinion.

You could probably find a decently clean 645 rangefinder for under $500. Try KEH. THey have a nice pile of Fujis with decent prices. They have alot of GA645s at the $400-$500 range. Buy one. Of course, they are autofocus.

Maybe the Bessa II is a better choice. Still expensive, though, for a clean one.

 

[wlewisiii]

As with all things photographic, there are trade offs. I've gotten lucky and the bottom feeder folders I've gotten were wonderful to shoot with. An Iskra is always a great choice as well.

Now, if you want a folder and/or rangefinder and known quality, your best bet is a Fuji GS645 75/3.4 folder. But watch out for the bellows as they tend to rot fast and at ~$600 at KEH, it isn't especially cheap. If you really want an inexpensive MF system, then look at the SLRs. Mamiya has some wonderful cameras and lenses for their M645 system that go for peanuts these days.

It's all about tradeoffs. What are you willing to give up to have some other thing? Make yourself a list of features you want. Then prioritize the list. Then start looking around with your budget in mind. You may be surprised at just how many really wonderful cameras are out there these days.

Good Luck!

William

 

[mitspooner]

Bessa 1

Bessa 1

The best folder I have used and the one I love is the Bessa 1. Tiny little viewfinder and no rangefinder (slip on rangefinder) but big and sharp 6x9 shots. For the big street and crowd shots there is nothing better that a 6x9 jumping out at you and shouting I got every piece of light. I know must go and look at my last vacation shots and DREAM in colour.

 

[sf]

agree

agree

Your best bet, by a long shot, would be a medium format SLR. Look at the Mamiya 645 SLRs. You won't find better quality, better glass, or more accessories for any system - for the price point. I used to have a Mamiya 645E, and it was easily the best portrait camera I've ever owned - best glass for portraits as well.

The M645, 645J, 645E, and other 645 Mamiya cameras float around for $200-$400 regularly - especially on the auction site. I saw a Mamiya 645 (forgot which one) go for $300 last night with two great lenses and other accessories. In great shape too.

If all you want is the nice negative, and something that will last a while, and is not limiting, buy the Mamiya 645 system. If you want a rangefinder, you won't find a cheaper "modern" MF RF than the Fujis, but they aren't as fast in glass or as versatile as the Mamiyas.

HERE, this is the camera you want if an SLR pleases you :

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mamiya-M645-Sup...7592503292QQcategoryZ3352QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

or a buy it now :

http://cgi.ebay.com/Boxed-Mamiya-64...7579183143QQcategoryZ3352QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

or this 645E (Newer body - I had this one and it was fantastic) :

http://cgi.ebay.com/Mamiya-645E-Med...oryZ3352QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

just keep your eyes peeled for the Mamiyas. They are the best of the SLR MF cameras for a decent price. And you can pick up great lenses for pennies compared to Hassy or Contax or pretty much any of hte rest. The Russian cameras such as the Kievs are decent as well, but for reliability and accessories, the Mamiya is a safer bet.

 

[clarence]

Hello,

I believe I'm going through a similar crisis right now. I wanted everything in a medium-format package: price, portability, negative size, interchangeable lenses, amongst other options. It's not possible.

I'd also played with the idea of getting a folder, but I was afraid of getting one that suffered from a host of problems like light leaks or slow shutter speeds. Possibly the only way of getting a working folder for certain is to purchase a refitted one like the ones that certo6 on ebay does. But for the price of 2 of those folding cameras, I could get a full Medium-format SLR system.

Folding cameras are cute and portable, and possibly the cheapest way to get 6x9 slides or negatives, but they don't offer the flexibility of an SLR system.


Clarence

 

[wlewisiii]

I agree completely with Clarence. Don't get me wrong - I dearly love playing with my folders. But I won't ever pretend that they are in any way professional cameras that can be counted upon in even slightly iffy circumstances. That's why I suggested the Mamiya SLR's to the OP. They are bang/buck the single best thing going in medium format. Excellent quality, actually quite fast glass by MF standards (80/2.8 is the _standard_ normal lens. And it is exquisite. KEH bargain is $72!) and dirt cheap even at places like KEH. With patience, you can make a righteous killing on a cheap MF system on ebay.

No, you have to decide your trade offs. I basically stopped using MF for anything serious - and folders are never serious - and went to either 4x5 for the big neg fix or 35mm RF's for handling and travel issues. Everyone needs to make their own decisions on that set of issues.

William

 

[sf]

[...] They are bang/buck the single best thing going in medium format. Excellent quality, actually quite fast glass by MF standards (80/2.8 is the _standard_ normal lens. And it is exquisite. KEH bargain is $72!)[...]

William

Gosh . . and I'm supposed to be studying for my International Business exam tomorrow. Oh well. This is more fun.

If you look hard enough - or buy one of the Mamiyas I listed on my last post - you may find the 80mm F1.9 lens that Mamiya sells for its 645 format cameras. That is the ultimate medium format lens. And, if you like bokeh . . . .I remember my 80mm F2.8 producing nicer, softer bokeh than any Leica lens' picture I've ever seen.

to call them "soft" isn't even good enough. Those lenses (both the 80mm) are miracles of lens design. Sharper than tacks where they need to be, and softer than a cloud where you want it. And for the price, there is simply nothing better.

I have attached some pics that demonstrate the abilities of the 80mm F2.8 Mamiya glass on the 645E. Of course, it will look the same on any body.

 

[sf]

And I found two more good examples.

Notice how amazingly smooth the bokeh is in the second image on her arms versus the background and her face/hair.

 

[Doug]

Any ideas or suggestions?

Hi! I have not really pushed in the old-folder direction as some have, partly because it's just hard for me to imagine either unfolding the camera every time I want to make a shot, or leaving it unfolded in preparation. Wear 'n' tear one way, and slow response. Vulnerability to damage and awkward to carry the other way. So I've passed on this configuration... except for a little play with a pre-war Kodak 620 folder my wife found in a pile of junk cameras. Oh, and a Welmy 66 that was my dad's.

My RFF gallery is full of 645-format rangefinder shots with three different cameras: a Fuji GS646S (my first such camera, all-manual, 60mm lens), a Fuji GA645Wi (full auto motor everything, 45mm lens), and a Bronica RF645 with interchangeable 45, 65, and 100mm lenses. These are very satisfactory, I think, all easy to carry and bring into action quickly, with excellent lenses and viewfinders. So, realistic RF solutions for today.

I have no quarrel with an SLR solution either, as I'm very fond of my Pentax 6x7 system begun in 1976, just expanded a bit today with the receipt of a 120mm Pentax Soft lens from KEH. There's some overlap in functional usage with the RFs, but each type of system has its strengths to exploit too.

 

[dazedgonebye]

Wow...thanks for all of the replies.
One of the major things that attracted me to the folders is the portability. I have a digital kit that I do most of my shooting with, and I don't see that changing. Film is more of a lark for me...just another way of enjoying the experience of photography. Of course, even on a lark, I want good results. Why tote the camera and spend money/time on film, processing and scanning if the results don't hold up? So far, what I've seen from my folders is so far inferior to my Canon 300D that I can't stand to waste the photo opportunity and film on the folder.
My Retina IIa has returned better results than either of the MF folders. Good enough results that I will continue to shoot with it. I've got a Yashica GS on the way as well, so I think I'm covered in the 35mm department.
I've looked at the Mamiya 645s and have been tempted. I wanted one of those so badly when I was in high school! The size holds me back though. I'd like to be able to drop it in the bag with my digital stuff. But they're just too big for that.
I think one of the GSW690's with the 65mm lens would be great for the shots I like to take, but they run pretty high and I'm concerned about the size. I've never held one. On the other hand, if I could get really good 6x9 or maybe 6x7 negs, I could likely make that much room in my bag.
I'm looking over the various 6x4.5 options.
The mamiyas seem to be off the list as just too expensive.
The Bronica looks good. I'd have to stretch to get one with the 45mm lens, but maybe.....
I need to read more about the many flavors of Fuji in 645. I want the widest lens possible, but I won't do zone focusing. On the other hand, I'm not in love with autofocus for this either.
Considering the price, I may try one of the Fujis. I can always resell it if it doesn't fit my needs.

I must sound incredibly picky. I don't mean to be. What I really want is a super sharp folding 6x4.5 folding camera with a coupled rangefinder. As near as I can tell though, such a thing does not exist.

 

[dazedgonebye]

I've considered that at least some of my problems with the Balda were operator error and inexperience with this type of camera. I have 4 more rolls that I shot before getting the first one back. They will go to be processed today. Hopefully I will have improved my results with practice. I'll post results when they get back and save myself the embarassment of posting the current shots (in case it all turns out to be operator error).
My balda does sport the lower level triplet lens so perhaps I can't expect much more.
The comparison to the 300D was, of course, not strictly fair. On the other hand, the results I get from the Retina IIa are very good and that camera has not been serviced since 1963. I'd hoped for that level of performance plus the larger negative.
The scans were just to illustrate the level of performance I'm getting from the Moskva. If you like that kind of cacti, or any other kind, check out my galleries. I'm up to my arse in cacti most days of the week. http://www.pbase.com/dazedgonebye/mslt.
I should have bought something from certo6. At least then I could be confident that the camear is performing to the best of its abilities. At this point, I don't really know if my problems are from a poorly adjusted camera, a defective camera, a good camera doing its best, or lousy technique.
I love the looks of the Konica Pearl. If the lens is as good as that on my Retina, a well adjusted copy of that camera would perhaps be ideal. I bid on a couple that came up on ebay, but did not win them. If I were to win one, I'd have to include the cost of a CLA in my initial investment. Maybe someone out there has a proven shooter that they'd like to part with. Hard to find.....

 

[pshinkaw]

Old folders, particularly MF folders, are a lot of fun to play with. However, one has to temper one's expectations because of the age of the cameras and because most folders are essentially compromises of portability over solidity and precision.

If you are focusing on results rather than playing with toys (playing with toys is something I'm guilty of) and you want to do it economically, you may want to look at a good used 6X6 TLR like a Rolleicord or Minolta Autocord. I recently acquired a fantastic Autocord for less than $75 (incl shipping). So, they are out there if you are patient.

TLR's are generally solid and if they are in good condition, they will leave you with far fewer equipment variables to deal with while you are perfecting your art (or craft).

-Paul

 

[dazedgonebye]

Actually, I have a Mamiya c220 laying about...I just don't like carrying the big box around.

I have no interest in compromising and I don't want to spend any money. Those nasty laws of physics are not my fault. I did not vote for the guys who passed them and I don't see why I should have to obey them.

Sorry, apparently my meds have not kicked in yet.

 

[dazedgonebye]

Here's a link to the Microcord in action by an RF forum member!

http://www.artemisworks.plus.com/vintage.htm

Even his results with the Isola are better than what I see with my Balda. Either it is in a bad way, or my technique is pathetic...or both.
I wish it would not take 2 weeks to get my current films back!

Two of the rolls I have to develop were shot at the Getty museum in LA. Some of the best architecture I've ever seen (to my taste). I hate thinking that they are all crap.

 

[sf]

dazedgoneby :

The Bronica is smaller, better build, more versatile, more intelligently designed, and just cooler than the Fujis OR the Mamiyas. Well, maybe the Fuji 645s are slightly tinier in some respects, but the Bronica is small. Smaller in all measurements than my Nikon D70 with 50mm lens. Except height, where i think the Bronica is a little bit taller - but not by much.

Go here and check it out. You can see by the pics, that it is pretty compact.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14424&page=3&pp=20

and the lenses are spectacular. Too bad all my pics were scanned with a cruddy scanner.

 

[dazedgonebye]

My appologies to "her."
I suspect one of the better lenses that Balda offered might make a difference. I like the handling overall. One on ebay right now sports the Schneider-Kreuznach Radionar 1:2,9/80 mm. I think I've read good things about that version.
If I continue with the folders, I'll likely identify something like the ones from your list and buy it from Certo6. Bottom feeding on ebay is for those folks handy enough to do their own repairs and calibrations. I keep having to re-learn that lesson.

 

[furcafe]

Small correction: the Agfa Super Isolette/Ansco Super Speedex have a coupled RF.

4. Agfa Super Isolette Solinar 75mm f3.5 lens (or cheaper Apotar version) [uncoupled]
.