gjlynx
Established
I was wondering if anyone knows at which serial no. they started adding "Germany" under "Wetzlar" on the model IIIc top plate? My goal is to understand the production history a little better and zero in on the ones that might have better quality.
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Rob-F
Likes Leicas
Doing a little quick research, I see where a IIIc as late as #390808, illustrated in Lager, and corresponding to the 1943-1946 production group, do not have the Germany engraving. My IIIc #419xxx (1946-47) does have it; and one in Lager, #417010 from the same period has it as well.
I imagine a reasonable guess would be that the "Germany" engraving was added at the conclusion of the war.
I imagine a reasonable guess would be that the "Germany" engraving was added at the conclusion of the war.
gjlynx
Established
My IIIc No 400328 does NOT have "Germany" on the top plate. Based on the cameraquest site, that would date it to 1946.
John Shriver
Well-known
I think it had as much to do with where it was being exported to. At some point, the US laws started to require marking of the country of origin of imported goods -- in English, of course.
gjlynx
Established
Well that would make sense as my IIIc has a screw 3/8" thread in the base plate which would mean that it was made for the European market. But this logic fails when I look at my M3 which has "Germany" and a 3/8" screw (but that's a different animal - 10 years younger)John Shriver said:
eli griggs
Well-known
My 403*** does not have it.
By-the-way, the only example I've ever seen of a German occupation mark was on a tea cup I bought at a yard sale that was marked "Made in Occupied Bavaria".
I believe all goods being brought into the U.S. had to be marked with country of origin at least by 1930 and IIRC, much earlier.
Off topic, I have a book in english, "The paintings of Rembrandt" that was printed with the notice "Made in Austria" but was over-stamped "Made in Germany". I believe that this was printed in 1937-38, though it could have been latter, and imported by a firm in Cincinnati, prior to WWII.
By-the-way, the only example I've ever seen of a German occupation mark was on a tea cup I bought at a yard sale that was marked "Made in Occupied Bavaria".
I believe all goods being brought into the U.S. had to be marked with country of origin at least by 1930 and IIRC, much earlier.
Off topic, I have a book in english, "The paintings of Rembrandt" that was printed with the notice "Made in Austria" but was over-stamped "Made in Germany". I believe that this was printed in 1937-38, though it could have been latter, and imported by a firm in Cincinnati, prior to WWII.
gjlynx
Established
How would you rate the quality of the chrome on your 403*** IIIc? I'm starting to wonder if the ones less than 40x000 (where I would like to know what x is) do not have Germany engraving and are made with better quality pre-war material. I wonder if there were some top plates left over when they began work on 400000?eli griggs said:
This IIIc No 401259 on the bay seems to fit this combination of features:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7598532380&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1123
srtiwari
Daktari
I have a # 424825, and it DOES have "Germany" engraved on the Top plate. Have no other IIIc to compare with, but mine seems to be good chrome; some discoloration, but no pitting.
eli griggs
Well-known
"How would you rate the quality of the chrome on your 403*** IIIc?"
There is a small spot of brass showing on the bottom edge of the top plate in front of the rewind assembly, where the finger grasps the camera, but it is faint. There also is some showing on the corner of the camera at the 'flash' shoe but all-in-all I'll say the chrome is not bad at all. The worst spot is the top of the shutter release, a small area which looks like the chrome is flaking off like a cheap plastic, chrome-plated toy.
There is also small wear areas on the top of the shutter speed dial and rewind knob top, by the edges, where you'd expect it. With the exception of the shutter release, these marks are smooth and gradual. I don't mind the wear on the chrome and consider it natural for a tool this old and rate the chrome as well done and good over-all.
By-the-way, thinking about it, my camera is marked with D.R.P. which I would think would serve the same function as a American product marked, U.S.A.
I hope this helps, Cheers
There is a small spot of brass showing on the bottom edge of the top plate in front of the rewind assembly, where the finger grasps the camera, but it is faint. There also is some showing on the corner of the camera at the 'flash' shoe but all-in-all I'll say the chrome is not bad at all. The worst spot is the top of the shutter release, a small area which looks like the chrome is flaking off like a cheap plastic, chrome-plated toy.
There is also small wear areas on the top of the shutter speed dial and rewind knob top, by the edges, where you'd expect it. With the exception of the shutter release, these marks are smooth and gradual. I don't mind the wear on the chrome and consider it natural for a tool this old and rate the chrome as well done and good over-all.
By-the-way, thinking about it, my camera is marked with D.R.P. which I would think would serve the same function as a American product marked, U.S.A.
I hope this helps, Cheers
john neal
fallor ergo sum
eli,
DRP = Deutsche Reich Patent - i.e pre and during WWII
DBP = Deutsches Bund Patent - i.e. after the Reich fell.
I don't speak German, but believe these would be the equivalent of "patent pending". The "made in Germany" mark just after the war was D.R.G.M. (Deutsches Reich Gebrauchsmuster), but i don't think Leica ever used that on its equipment.
DBP was probably not used until about 1949, or whenever the Federal Republic actually came into being.
Early postwar IIIc bodies were still marked DRP, so it is an imprecise dating tool.
DRP = Deutsche Reich Patent - i.e pre and during WWII
DBP = Deutsches Bund Patent - i.e. after the Reich fell.
I don't speak German, but believe these would be the equivalent of "patent pending". The "made in Germany" mark just after the war was D.R.G.M. (Deutsches Reich Gebrauchsmuster), but i don't think Leica ever used that on its equipment.
DBP was probably not used until about 1949, or whenever the Federal Republic actually came into being.
Early postwar IIIc bodies were still marked DRP, so it is an imprecise dating tool.
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Dralowid
Michael
408138 marked Germany
Michael
Luddite Frank
Well-known
I thought I would offer some observations regarding my III, even though it's earlier than the cameras in question at the top of the thread.
I have one chrome III, s/n: 1366XX, which puts it around 1934, acc'd to the tables at Cameraquest.
There's no brassing to the top or bottom plates from wear, although the base plate has plenty of light scratching, and there's enough wear to the upper sides on the holes in the body lugs to suggest that this Barnack didn't hide in an eveready case.
The RF / shutter speed "dome" does exhibit some pitting and peeling, here and there.
The worst pitting/ peeling is right around the serial # ( no signs of mischief), then around the bottom edges of the RF "dome".
There's some slight pitting of the top plate, around the three screws that secure the rewind knob bearing to the top plate.
The plating on all the knobs looks pretty sound.
This camera came from an E-bayer in Florida, and given the rusting I've found around steel screws in the body, I think the "rash" may be due to salt-air ?
Oddly enough, though this is the ugliest of my five Barnacks, it is in the best working-order: curtains are sound, and the shutter seems to be spot-on at all speeds, even the slows...
To sum-up, the "bad chrome" on this particular camera is mostly confined to the RF cover/ "dome"...
Luddite Frank
( mfr's info:
Ernst Leitz
Wetzlar
D.R.P. - stamped in RF dome; 3/8 "European" tripod-socket )
I have one chrome III, s/n: 1366XX, which puts it around 1934, acc'd to the tables at Cameraquest.
There's no brassing to the top or bottom plates from wear, although the base plate has plenty of light scratching, and there's enough wear to the upper sides on the holes in the body lugs to suggest that this Barnack didn't hide in an eveready case.
The RF / shutter speed "dome" does exhibit some pitting and peeling, here and there.
The worst pitting/ peeling is right around the serial # ( no signs of mischief), then around the bottom edges of the RF "dome".
There's some slight pitting of the top plate, around the three screws that secure the rewind knob bearing to the top plate.
The plating on all the knobs looks pretty sound.
This camera came from an E-bayer in Florida, and given the rusting I've found around steel screws in the body, I think the "rash" may be due to salt-air ?
Oddly enough, though this is the ugliest of my five Barnacks, it is in the best working-order: curtains are sound, and the shutter seems to be spot-on at all speeds, even the slows...
To sum-up, the "bad chrome" on this particular camera is mostly confined to the RF cover/ "dome"...
Luddite Frank
( mfr's info:
Ernst Leitz
Wetzlar
D.R.P. - stamped in RF dome; 3/8 "European" tripod-socket )
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LeicaTom
Watch that step!
The Germany engraving came about after the "flat top" production of the IIIC, in late 1946 quite possibly around serial #405xxx+ cameras - this also might have to do with the "export" factor as well before mentioned - (though I`m still researching the Export history from Leitz and won`t have soild answers about things until the archives are reopened, which I hope will be shortly)
The Leitz factory was in the US Zone of Occupation and many other firms had been stamping "Made In US Zone" on their products while this was also a standard to show goods coming from the Western Zones - mostly Glassworks, Porcelain manufacturers and Toy companies practiced this certain way of marking goods up until Germany became it`s own Democracy in 1949 - then after that all goods were stamped with the "Made In Western Germany" markings, by the time the 1960`s and 70`s rolled around, most people knew that goods marked "Germany" were from the West anyway, so many manufacturers dropped the western anyway....
Leica added Wetzlar to their markings and stampings along with GMBH - but didn`t use the "Western Germany" stamping either
The bad chrome issues did`nt start until after cameras in the #425xxx+ serial number ranges and went till well into the #500xxx ranges
Seems that in 1946 Leitz changed their chrome plating processes due to some shortages and the poor chrome was a result, which would`nt be straightened out until the IIIF came along - in which that camera had it`s own problems as well (bad curtain fabrics etc. etc.)
As I`ve explained in another thread - the quality factors/issues at Leitz really didn`t improve until about 1954, with the introduction of the M3 and also better economy and supply issues insued throughout Germany
Tom
The Leitz factory was in the US Zone of Occupation and many other firms had been stamping "Made In US Zone" on their products while this was also a standard to show goods coming from the Western Zones - mostly Glassworks, Porcelain manufacturers and Toy companies practiced this certain way of marking goods up until Germany became it`s own Democracy in 1949 - then after that all goods were stamped with the "Made In Western Germany" markings, by the time the 1960`s and 70`s rolled around, most people knew that goods marked "Germany" were from the West anyway, so many manufacturers dropped the western anyway....
Leica added Wetzlar to their markings and stampings along with GMBH - but didn`t use the "Western Germany" stamping either
The bad chrome issues did`nt start until after cameras in the #425xxx+ serial number ranges and went till well into the #500xxx ranges
Seems that in 1946 Leitz changed their chrome plating processes due to some shortages and the poor chrome was a result, which would`nt be straightened out until the IIIF came along - in which that camera had it`s own problems as well (bad curtain fabrics etc. etc.)
As I`ve explained in another thread - the quality factors/issues at Leitz really didn`t improve until about 1954, with the introduction of the M3 and also better economy and supply issues insued throughout Germany
Tom
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ray*j*gun
Veteran
I have two IIIc's one with 422xxx and one with 464xxx, both have Germany engraved. The chrome on both is perfect. Both have 3/8 inch screw tripod mounts.
eli griggs
Well-known
John Neil, thank you for setting me straight on the patent marks; this is something I once knew, forgot and apparently mixed up with something else.
This is a good example of why I like this forum so much; ready sources of helpful folks to keep me on the right track!
LeicaTom, would any of the wartime cameras have had English instructions on them, such as film loading info?
Cheers
This is a good example of why I like this forum so much; ready sources of helpful folks to keep me on the right track!
LeicaTom, would any of the wartime cameras have had English instructions on them, such as film loading info?
Cheers
LeicaTom
Watch that step!
eli griggs said:
Well, I`ve seen *postwar* converted flash sync camera bottoms matched to "stepped rewind" platform cameras (they were hand numbered and sync`d to every camera modified) but these were all postwar 1947/49 done by Leitz New York and I have seen that these cameras HAD English instructions on the bottom of the camera
To the best of my knowledge Leitz did`nt export any cameras to any English speaking countries after Sept. 1939 - most certainly not England, but Leitz New York also ceased operations of importing cameras into the USA as of late August 1939 - though I do believe that there`s some wartime serial numbered lenses out there in Feet scale and not meters * rare stuff *
During WW2 a certain small lot of cameras were shipped to netural Sweden and Switzerland - and through the diplomatic and RAF/Royal Navy secret barter pipelines to the Allies, some of these may? have had English instructions put on them, I have to ask Jim Lager about it
Tom
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