raytoei@gmail.com
Veteran
hi,
i have some questions regarding replenishers, appreciate if you could point me to the right direction.
a. why use a seasoned tank as opposed a fresh one-off developer ?
b. how does one develop with a seasoned tank?
- I have a 5ltr container containing undiluted developer.
- Do i pour out the required solution during each development, eg 600ml for a 2-film development, develop it and then pour it back to the 5ltr tank ? This mean i have to develop in 1+0 rather than diluted.
c. how does one replenish ?
In XTOL literature, they suggest 70ml per 36-exp roll of film. Does it mean i subtract 70ml per roll from the season tank (and dispose of) and add in 70ml per roll of replenisher after each development ?
thanks. I have developed successful for the past few years and now exploring replenishers.
thanks
i have some questions regarding replenishers, appreciate if you could point me to the right direction.
a. why use a seasoned tank as opposed a fresh one-off developer ?
b. how does one develop with a seasoned tank?
- I have a 5ltr container containing undiluted developer.
- Do i pour out the required solution during each development, eg 600ml for a 2-film development, develop it and then pour it back to the 5ltr tank ? This mean i have to develop in 1+0 rather than diluted.
c. how does one replenish ?
In XTOL literature, they suggest 70ml per 36-exp roll of film. Does it mean i subtract 70ml per roll from the season tank (and dispose of) and add in 70ml per roll of replenisher after each development ?
thanks. I have developed successful for the past few years and now exploring replenishers.
thanks
presspass
filmshooter
With X-tol, you add the replenisher after developing the film. If you are using a deep tank, you simply add it and, if the level is too high, you remove some - the quantity is not that critical. If you are using a deep tank with a floating lid, there will be some evaporation, so you probably won't have to take any out. You can keep the same developer going almost indefinitely - I have used the same developer for as long as two years, doing six to 10 rolls of either Tri-X or HP5+ a week. There will be some sludge buildup at the bottom of the tank - you can either ignore it or filter it out every couple of months.
If you are storing the X-tol in a one liter or so glass bottle, you use the developer in a tank, put the replenisher in the bottle, and, when you are finished, pour the developer back into the bottle. You probably won't have to discard any, as you will lose some to the process.
Using the developer will season it. You can use several rolls to season the tank, or you can start with the times/temps for straight X-tol and, as the developer seasons, transition to the times/temps for replenished.
I no longer use X-tol, having gone to D-23 and replenishing that, but X-tol is a fine developer.
Hope this helps.
If you are storing the X-tol in a one liter or so glass bottle, you use the developer in a tank, put the replenisher in the bottle, and, when you are finished, pour the developer back into the bottle. You probably won't have to discard any, as you will lose some to the process.
Using the developer will season it. You can use several rolls to season the tank, or you can start with the times/temps for straight X-tol and, as the developer seasons, transition to the times/temps for replenished.
I no longer use X-tol, having gone to D-23 and replenishing that, but X-tol is a fine developer.
Hope this helps.
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mcfingon
Western Australia
A) I feel that seasoned developer gives better sharpness and less grain. Doesn't make sense I know.
B) I use less developing time than the recommended for the developer/film combination I use. I think you have to experiment to find the time that works for your application. I scan my negatives, not print.
C) I just use fresh developer as my "replenisher". I put aside a 600 ml quantity of developer, re-use that for film after film, then top-up to the same level with new unused developer after each use. If i get some silver goop at the bottom of the jar, I decant it and top-up more fresh developer to make up for fluid loss.
B) I use less developing time than the recommended for the developer/film combination I use. I think you have to experiment to find the time that works for your application. I scan my negatives, not print.
C) I just use fresh developer as my "replenisher". I put aside a 600 ml quantity of developer, re-use that for film after film, then top-up to the same level with new unused developer after each use. If i get some silver goop at the bottom of the jar, I decant it and top-up more fresh developer to make up for fluid loss.
raytoei@gmail.com
Veteran
thanks mcfingon and presspass for your replies. can i ask how much to replenish ? ie. as per individual developer literature ? (eg. 70ml per roll for xtol, etc) or is there a rule of thumb. thanks again
presspass
filmshooter
Go with Kodak's recommendation to start. A lot is going to depend on how many rolls you shoot and how often. It will work better if you use it frequently - at least once a week for several rolls.
mcfingon
Western Australia
My method is unorthodox. I just top up what is lost after each film is processed. I aim to keep the developing time the same. If it looks like the film is getting less contrasty or thin, then I will tip out some seasoned developer and add more fresh. It will take some time to get an "eye" for looking at negs and assessing density.
raytoei@gmail.com
Veteran
thanks all. let me read up again
Bill Clark
Veteran
I tried replinishers for D-76.
But putting a pencil to my D-76 costs, I passed using it.
Here is why:
1 gallon of D-76 from Freestyle is $6.00
UPS shipping $1.00
1 gallon distilled water $1.00
Total $8.00
For 35mm film developed in a Paterson Tank:
1+1 Working solution takes 5 ounces each 35mm film.
128 ounces (1 gallon) divided by 5 = 26 rolls per gallon
$8.00 divided by 26 = $.31 per roll.
If you use replenisher that has a cost per roll.
You'd need to work out what other developers would cost as well as replenisher.
For me, using D-76, I think 31 cents per roll is pretty reasonable and I use it once therefore I get consistent results.
There are other developers that would cost more and some less.
I sometimes will use Rodinal with stand development and that is really cheap!
Thought I would share with you my thoughts.
But putting a pencil to my D-76 costs, I passed using it.
Here is why:
1 gallon of D-76 from Freestyle is $6.00
UPS shipping $1.00
1 gallon distilled water $1.00
Total $8.00
For 35mm film developed in a Paterson Tank:
1+1 Working solution takes 5 ounces each 35mm film.
128 ounces (1 gallon) divided by 5 = 26 rolls per gallon
$8.00 divided by 26 = $.31 per roll.
If you use replenisher that has a cost per roll.
You'd need to work out what other developers would cost as well as replenisher.
For me, using D-76, I think 31 cents per roll is pretty reasonable and I use it once therefore I get consistent results.
There are other developers that would cost more and some less.
I sometimes will use Rodinal with stand development and that is really cheap!
Thought I would share with you my thoughts.
x-ray
Veteran
The correct way is to add the recommended ml's per roll of film as described by the first response. Topping the bottle off with fresh stock developer or using stock developer rather than replenisher isn't the right way to do it. You'll add too much of some components and not enough of others. Consistency won't be good and over a period of time your results will be quite different from fresh developer.
I replenished both color and B&W for many years when I was shooting high volumes of film. It's a great economical way do process. At the time I was running color in a 5 gal gas burst lne and B&W in a 3-1/2 gallon line.
The generally accepted rule is to use no more replenisher than the volume of the processing tank you're replenishing. If you run a 1 gallon line use no more than 1 gallon of replenisher and then discard and mix fresh.
Seasoned tanks contain a higher quantity of bromides. It's hard to put your fnger on why but film imo looks better when run in a seasoned tank. Tonality improves IMO and grain looks better.
I replenished both color and B&W for many years when I was shooting high volumes of film. It's a great economical way do process. At the time I was running color in a 5 gal gas burst lne and B&W in a 3-1/2 gallon line.
The generally accepted rule is to use no more replenisher than the volume of the processing tank you're replenishing. If you run a 1 gallon line use no more than 1 gallon of replenisher and then discard and mix fresh.
Seasoned tanks contain a higher quantity of bromides. It's hard to put your fnger on why but film imo looks better when run in a seasoned tank. Tonality improves IMO and grain looks better.
mcfingon
Western Australia
That's what I enjoy about the seasoned developer, ID-11 in my case. It becomes something slightly different and in my subjective view, better. I didn't know it was a bromide increase. It makes it a bit more objective. Thanks for that x-ray!
Noserider
Christiaan Phleger
Presspass reply is correct.
"The generally accepted rule is to use no more replenisher than the volume of the processing tank you're replenishing. If you run a 1 gallon line use no more than 1 gallon of replenisher and then discard and mix fresh"
This is true EXCEPT for XTOL.
XTOL keeps going and going but needs filtering now and then. I've been using since it came out in 96-97 and once I discovered using it Replenished have used it since. One batch went 5 years with heavy use; a Kodak test lab used it to 5 years and thats what Kodak recommends which is way way more than the original volume. My current batch in one gallon size replenished is at least 2-3 years old and most likely older, I'll have to check my notes. Once stabilized processing times/density are rock solid which was important with the volume of wedding photography I did then. Another photo friend on my advice and influence is working on an XTOL one gallon batch at least 1-2 years with same levels of consistency and control.
Well stoppered in a one gallon glass apple juice jug with a large rubber stopper I often can go 4-6 months between *any rolls* processes and even though I am careful to do an actual test roll after that time to confirm actual lens created density on the film I will be processing i am ALWAYS kind of amazed that not only does this old ancient batch actually work but in fact works correctly and consistently even after long storage.
I've commented on this on APUG and you can read heaps about replenishing XTOL on APUG.
Generally speaking I replenish less than Kodak recommends but 70ml is good to start; in my experience some films put less stress on the developer. During my heaviest use I was shooting Neopan 400 in 35mm and 120 and it needed less to stay stable.
Keep in mind that once it stabilizes the times can be 25-35% more than the listed Stock time (non Replenished) and in my case even over the Kodak replenished time.
In my well seasoned opinion replenished is the very best way to use XTOL.
(2nd is 1:3 ha ha)
"The generally accepted rule is to use no more replenisher than the volume of the processing tank you're replenishing. If you run a 1 gallon line use no more than 1 gallon of replenisher and then discard and mix fresh"
This is true EXCEPT for XTOL.
XTOL keeps going and going but needs filtering now and then. I've been using since it came out in 96-97 and once I discovered using it Replenished have used it since. One batch went 5 years with heavy use; a Kodak test lab used it to 5 years and thats what Kodak recommends which is way way more than the original volume. My current batch in one gallon size replenished is at least 2-3 years old and most likely older, I'll have to check my notes. Once stabilized processing times/density are rock solid which was important with the volume of wedding photography I did then. Another photo friend on my advice and influence is working on an XTOL one gallon batch at least 1-2 years with same levels of consistency and control.
Well stoppered in a one gallon glass apple juice jug with a large rubber stopper I often can go 4-6 months between *any rolls* processes and even though I am careful to do an actual test roll after that time to confirm actual lens created density on the film I will be processing i am ALWAYS kind of amazed that not only does this old ancient batch actually work but in fact works correctly and consistently even after long storage.
I've commented on this on APUG and you can read heaps about replenishing XTOL on APUG.
Generally speaking I replenish less than Kodak recommends but 70ml is good to start; in my experience some films put less stress on the developer. During my heaviest use I was shooting Neopan 400 in 35mm and 120 and it needed less to stay stable.
Keep in mind that once it stabilizes the times can be 25-35% more than the listed Stock time (non Replenished) and in my case even over the Kodak replenished time.
In my well seasoned opinion replenished is the very best way to use XTOL.
(2nd is 1:3 ha ha)
Roger Hicks
Veteran
But ISO speeds fall by about 1 stop for the same reason. (Basis: Ilford research.)
Cheers,
R.
presspass
filmshooter
Some replenished developers do loose a stop of speed, but I never found that to be true with X-tol and I'm not seeing it with D-23. When I was using X-tol, I was doing a lot more film for our weekly newspapers and I had to be consistent to get the prints and then the scans right. I do change the D-23 every couple of months, dumping out about a half liter and replacing it with fresh. This may or may not be needed, but it's the way I do it.
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dunno about Xtol but D23 is a low-speed, single agent (Metol) developer and besides, you're not actually replenishing, are you? Replenishing normally implies using a purpose-made replenisher rather than just topping up with stock solution, or chucking some out every now and then.
I'll accept that some replenished developers may not show much speed loss, but I'd be surprised if there were any that didn't show at least some.
Cheers,
R.
Ronald M
Veteran
Xtol is the only developer I know that is replenished with stock. Something like D76, you need to make D76R and follow exact procedure.
People do just "wing it " with times. But the proper way is to run test strips and use a densitometer to see results. Then adjust time to compensate.
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j109/j109.pdf
Since you have 5 liters, I assume Xtol. There is a starter solution to preseason the tank or you can develop film to season it your self adding time with each batch.
My experience is seasoned developer gives better results. With C41 I could never achieve the fine grain I got from a lab.
People do just "wing it " with times. But the proper way is to run test strips and use a densitometer to see results. Then adjust time to compensate.
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j109/j109.pdf
Since you have 5 liters, I assume Xtol. There is a starter solution to preseason the tank or you can develop film to season it your self adding time with each batch.
My experience is seasoned developer gives better results. With C41 I could never achieve the fine grain I got from a lab.
presspass
filmshooter
Roger, yes I am using the replenisher that is designed for D-23 and D-25. i am not just topping off the developer with more D-23.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Okay, thanks. It wasn't clear from your original post. But I still think there has to be a speed loss as compared with fresh D23. When did you last use fresh (non-replenished) D23?
Cheers,
R.
presspass
filmshooter
Roger, I last used fresh D-23 straight about six months ago. I wanted to see if it would give more speed than replenished. I did not do a densitometer test, but the wet prints did not change in time or multigrade filter choice, using a Splitgrade analyzer and head, all on a Focomat V-35. So, is there a difference? Perhaps, but not one that affects my prints or scans.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Freakscene
Obscure member
I ran a replenished Xtol line for a decade or so, and used test strips to assess speeds and determine times for different films shot at different speeds all based on a huge database I made myself from densitometry of client negs.
APX films in replenished Xtol look amazing - very sharp, very fine grain, more open shadows and low values than with Rodinal. I like the look a lot.
Xtol is its own replenisher. The chemistry of this was somewhat mysterious to me, so I asked Dick Dickerson and Silvia Zawadski who formulated and developed the data for Xtol at Kodak. Their answers were somewhat evasive and when I pressed they essentially said "we're not sure but it works". And it does.
You need to season the batch of developer at the start or it performs variably as the bromides and other development by-products accumulate. You also need to use the developer frequently and, with Xtol, protect it from oxidation (don't store it with an open lid). It is more stable and predictable if you use the developer heavily (tens of rolls a week), which is hard for a lot of commercial operators these days.
One query in the original post that I don't think anyone answered is do not dilute Xtol and re-use it. You can replenish stock Xtol, but diluted it is strictly one use only. Especially at dilutions higher than 1+1 you have only just enough developer to develop a single full tank (and not even enough for some films, it seems).
Marty
APX films in replenished Xtol look amazing - very sharp, very fine grain, more open shadows and low values than with Rodinal. I like the look a lot.
Xtol is its own replenisher. The chemistry of this was somewhat mysterious to me, so I asked Dick Dickerson and Silvia Zawadski who formulated and developed the data for Xtol at Kodak. Their answers were somewhat evasive and when I pressed they essentially said "we're not sure but it works". And it does.
You need to season the batch of developer at the start or it performs variably as the bromides and other development by-products accumulate. You also need to use the developer frequently and, with Xtol, protect it from oxidation (don't store it with an open lid). It is more stable and predictable if you use the developer heavily (tens of rolls a week), which is hard for a lot of commercial operators these days.
One query in the original post that I don't think anyone answered is do not dilute Xtol and re-use it. You can replenish stock Xtol, but diluted it is strictly one use only. Especially at dilutions higher than 1+1 you have only just enough developer to develop a single full tank (and not even enough for some films, it seems).
Marty
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