Question on how to use replenishers

[x-ray]

But ISO speeds fall by about 1 stop for the same reason. (Basis: Ilford research.)

Cheers,

R.

I've never experienced a speed drop and have been replenishing both dip and dunk hand lines, gas burst and continuous processors for forty five years. Every line I've replenished Ive run controll strips to monitor it. If this were the case every processing machine running E6 and B&W would start to lose speed as its replenished. The 1st developer in E6 is basically an MQ developer just like traditional B&W film developers so if an ISO drop was normal then You'd never know what ISO to rate your E6 at or your B&W film for that matter. You might build up enough byproducts to cause this if you replenish behing the recommender volume 1gal repl/1gal working strength but I can't say because I've considered my work to be too valuable to risk problems.

Under utilization of a processing line will cause oxidation and speed loss. Oxidation is not only a byproduct of air and developer it's the chemical reaction that makes film process. Reduction of the silver halide into metallic silver causes oxidation of the developing components. This will occur in the presence of oxygen or without oxygen. It's an ion exchange process that causes this REDOX reaction. These components that are oxidized are what the replenisher adds back without adding additional bromide or sulfite. All of the components are maintained at the proper concentration if replenished and monitored properly. Only what's depleted is added back to maintain activity. My degree is in chemistry and microbiology and did a research paper on the process.

 

[mcfingon]

I think there's a small speed drop when using ID-11 as its own replenisher, which is what I've been doing. I'm in the bush in Australia, so you've got to be resourceful. I noticed a while ago that there is a way to mix a "proper" replenisher for ID-11 from two of its part A packs and one part B pack. I may try that. But it seems to be working well as it is despite Ilford saying don't use use it as its own replenisher. Link to Ilford doc on mixing your own:
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20129191256261906.pdf

 

[raytoei@gmail.com]

Marty,

thanks much on specific xtol and replenishing.

So here is a workflow, can u see if i am more or less correct:

- store 2 x 1 litre container of xtol, one as reuse, and one as a replenisher
- use 1+0 ie. undiluted in the reuse bottle, say up to 3 rolls (assuming 300ml per roll for AP tank
- for 4 - 6 roll, pour out 210ml (3 rolls in a 1 litre at 70ml per roll) from reuse container and add from replenisher bottle of same amount. Of coss, using developing, there will be shortfall of developer, so the replenishment will be slightly more. repeat in batch of 3 rolls for the 1 litre bottle.

- key is to make sure that there is no air oxidation, one way could be to make sure the containers fills up to the brim.
- the assumption above is that i pour the whole 1litre reuse solution into the tank.

is this more or less correct ?

thanks!

raytoei

 

[Freakscene]

So here is a workflow, can u see if i am more or less correct:

- store 2 x 1 litre container of xtol, one as reuse, and one as a replenisher
- use 1+0 ie. undiluted in the reuse bottle, say up to 3 rolls (assuming 300ml per roll for AP tank
- for 4 - 6 roll, pour out 210ml (3 rolls in a 1 litre at 70ml per roll) from reuse container and add from replenisher bottle of same amount. Of coss, using developing, there will be shortfall of developer, so the replenishment will be slightly more. repeat in batch of 3 rolls for the 1 litre bottle.

- key is to make sure that there is no air oxidation, one way could be to make sure the containers fills up to the brim.
- the assumption above is that i pour the whole 1litre reuse solution into the tank.

The aim is stability. Develop at least 7 or 8 rolls in 1L of developer following the time extension guidelines on the Kodak data sheet (e.g. here: http://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/j109-1998_04.pdf) then start replenishing. The initial development 'seasons' the developer. If you start replenishing right away you will probably find that the developer behaves unpredictably.

You can also chemically season the developer as per the guidelines on p2 of the data sheet. 2 L may be too little to start with for stability; I've never tried to reuse such a small amount of developer (my processor held 10L of developer). There may not be much advantage in replenishing if you are shooting sufficiently few rolls to be contemplating starting with only 1L of developer.

Let us know how you go.

Marty

 

[mcfingon]

Thanks for the replenish detail Freakscene. I noticed that it was hard to get predictability when I was using D76 and D76R replenisher, but I didn't do the 7-8 rolls "seasoning" before starting replenishing. I don't think Kodak mentioned that part 🙂 I will try ID-11 replenishing, but I've been very happy with just topping up with more ID-11 from a 1 litre pack. Results below with Delta 100:

 

[raytoei@gmail.com]

thanks much for all the suggestions. okay. i am already into my 8th roll this week using replenishment...

and i replenished immediately after the first 3 rolls...oops.

i am using a one litre bottle for reuse while using another foldable bottle as replenisher,
i am making sure i don't have air bubbles trapped in the bottles.

I am now adjusting the time for development, as well as trying out 70ml instead of the original 100ml replenishment per roll.

i am currently at: 5mins@30c (!), 1 agitation per minute, and 70ml

previously it was 6min@30c, 2 agitation turns per min, and 100ml. it came out quite contrasty.

here is a picture from yesterday.

 

[x-ray]

Only make one adjustment at a time. Don't change time and replenishment at the same time. There's no way to know which is effecting the contrast and you most likely will under replenish.

Why 30 degrees C? 20 degrees is the norm. I don't believe the recommended 100ml is the problem. I believe your contrast is coming from over developing as a result of either too high a temperature, too long a time or a combination of both. In any case only adjust one variable at a time.

 

[Freakscene]

Ray is in SE Asia and routinely, if I recall correctly, develops at 30C. I've worked in the tropics a lot without the ability to control temperature much, and found Xtol was great for this. Kodak gives times for Xtol up to 27C, and it's not too difficult to work out standard times or an adjustment factor for 30C from the 27C times.

Kodak recommends adding 70mL/roll. Stick to that.

The high contrast is probably from developing too long in developer that is still very active.

X-ray's point about changing only one variable at a time is the best advice for understanding that that change does to your development.

I'm still not sure why you want to replenish given that your film volumes are not very large. For good control in tropical temperatures, dilute Xtol is fantastic, and 5L goes a long way. Replenishment is good for tens of rolls per week.

Marty

 

[Steve M.]

Fascinating stuff. I have some Microdol developer here (not the 'X' variant) and a can of replenisher. Both have been around the house for years, but I never got around to using the stuff that way, and probably never will. It's simpler for me to just use fresh developer whenever I want to develop something, or use what is mixed up within it's shelf life. Consistency is what I'm looking for, and as mentioned, I think the op should look at how much film they develop regularly before looking at replenishing. For my photography needs it makes no sense..

 

[raytoei@gmail.com]

hi all thanks much for advice.

* yes 30c is my temp of my tap water, and i have never really developed in 20c before.

* my volume is actually quite high, currently 281 rolls this year, but i understand may not be high enough for replenishment system.

* i just wanted to find out if the negatives are enhanced by this method rather than a single use system, and not really to save costs, as the cost is roughly the same as xtol 1+1.

* also, i have using AE on my camera (as opposed to Sunny 11/16) so that I get consistent exposure.

today into the 10th roll using this system, and my negatives are showing more shadow regions rather than just a dense negative (unlike roll 1) I have reduced by agitation with only 1 turn per minute (rather than 2). The highlight areas are still showing a bit of high contrast, something which I will focus on by reducing time.

thanks

Here's a pic from today's dev:
contax G1 with 45f2 and RPX400 film
5mins@30c, XTOL with 70ml per roll replenished, 1 agitation turn every min.

 

[x-ray]

Two things to consider, if your development times drop below 5 minutes you may have a consistency time. 5 minutes or more is considered ideal. Second, some developers aren't designed to work above certain temperatures. I don't know about xtol but would do some checkng. In the old days there were specific tropical developer formulas designed for the higher temperature processing. The activity level of certain components may not remain linear as temps increase so formulas need rebalanced.

 

[Freakscene]

~500 rolls a year is enough rolls to justify replenishing. Replenishing is cheaper than any other way to use Xtol except 1+3 and even then, 1+3 is only cheaper if you can make 1+3 work at lower stock/roll amounts than Kodak recommends. This depends on what film you are developing and how the films are exposed.

Xtol works very well at tropical temperatures.

Let us know how you go.

Marty

 

[raytoei@gmail.com]

hi. just a quick followup.

i have shot 31 rolls with replenishment. I used a 1litre bottle and replenished roughly 70ml per roll.

I have switched to a 2litre bottle since this gives me more room in case i need to develop in my 5 roll AP tank.

A couple of observations:

* the method works with Kentmere 400 (Ultrafine Xtreme 400, Rollei RPX 400) and at 28-30c (my usual work temp), it is 4mins 30seconds, with 1 turn agitation per minute. I tried 2 turns but the contrast tend to be a bit high. ISO 400 and ISO 800 work well.

* There is a fine soot inside the sides of the bottle, and it smears on my fingers when I touched the bottle sides. I think i will change the inexpensive supermarket 2lite drinks bottle when the gunk accumulates too much. Any idea on how to clean it off easily, or should i just dispose of the cheap plastic bottles ?

* I am still not too sure about the "replenished" development magic. Perhaps this is because I have only developed in 1+1 dilution previously and can't really compare 1+0 unreplenished and replenished.
Only observation from 1+0 replenished and 1+1 is that 1+0 tends to be smoother but lacks edge sharpness (which isn't an issue for me)


Here is a recent picture from last week, contax T RF at iso 800 at 6mins.

 

[Freakscene]

hi. just a quick followup.

Thanks, good to know how you're going.

i have shot 31 rolls with replenishment. I used a 1litre bottle and replenished roughly 70ml per roll.

I have switched to a 2litre bottle since this gives me more room in case i need to develop in my 5 roll AP tank.

Volume does help with stability.

A couple of observations:
* the method works with Kentmere 400 (Ultrafine Xtreme 400, Rollei RPX 400) and at 28-30c (my usual work temp), it is 4mins 30seconds, with 1 turn agitation per minute. I tried 2 turns but the contrast tend to be a bit high. ISO 400 and ISO 800 work well.

In general I think controlling contrast with time works better than with agitation, but at 30C and 4.5 minutes you don't really have any scope to shorten your development, and even a 30s decrease is a very large percentage at that short time.

* There is a fine soot inside the sides of the bottle, and it smears on my fingers when I touched the bottle sides. I think i will change the inexpensive supermarket 2lite drinks bottle when the gunk accumulates too much. Any idea on how to clean it off easily, or should i just dispose of the cheap plastic bottles ?

This is the remains of the antihalation layer. It builds more with more rolls of film. Filter the developer and either use a new bottle, or wash the old one with ordinary dish soap, rinse in the same water you use to mix your developer, and re-fill with filtered developer. In large replenishment systems it does not get removed, but sinks to the bottom of the tank(s).

* I am still not too sure about the "replenished" development magic. Perhaps this is because I have only developed in 1+1 dilution previously and can't really compare 1+0 unreplenished and replenished.

That's because replenishment is not magic. It does make a given volume of developer last longer, however.

Apart from for the APX films, I think dilute Xtol (particularly 1+3) looks better than replenished. But there is a point where the developer is very well used where the tones are lovely with almost any film but at the cost of, as you point out, edge sharpness.

This is Tri-X in replenished Xtol.

Only observation from 1+0 replenished and 1+1 is that 1+0 tends to be smoother but lacks edge sharpness (which isn't an issue for me)

This is about right.

Here is a recent picture from last week, contax T RF at iso 800 at 6mins.

These look good, but also not very dissimilar to your other work developed different ways. Do you wet print? That's where you really see the differences.

Marty

 

[raytoei@gmail.com]

hi. just a quick feedback, i am into my 2nd pack of 5litre xtol. and still holding up.
i add the replenished xtol into the 2litre bottle THEN pour back the used developer from the AP tank, so i don't have to worry about topping up further to close out the air bubbles.

attached thumbnail is roll#337 using rollei ir400 exposed as a normal film.
time is 4mins 30sec at 30C (my normal dev temp).

thanks!
raytoei