Questions about a lens (help needed)

[Joao]

Today this lens came to my hands. It has no focusing barrel (fixed focus), manual closing of the iris (stops at 4,5 ,5,6 , 8 , 11, 16, 22, 32, no clicks), three elements (or groups of elements), no visible coating, filter thread, front diameter 45 mm, diameter of the back thread (around 48 mm).
Inscriptions on the front ring
SOM BERTHIOT PARIS 1114862 FLOR 1:4,5 F=165

Three more pictures here
http://s627.photobucket.com/albums/tt360/foto_apparat/Berthiot Flor 165/

It seems to be a cine lens - or perhaps an enlarger lens, but I am still not sure. I searched the usual places for information and was surprised by these two lenses for sale with the same name but a very different look
http://BerthiotFlor01.notlong.com
http://BerthiotFlor02.notlong.com
Is my lens missing some parts ? Are there variations of this model ? Could it be some hybrid homemade variant ?
Opinions and suggestions are most welcome
Thank you in advance
Joao

 

[ferider]

A large format lens to be put in a board ?

 

[Joao]

A large format lens to be put in a board ?

That is an interesting possibility (LF is an area completely strange to me...). Let's see if someone else helps in clarifying this.
Thanks
Joao

 

[HuubL]

enlarger lens? no shutter!

 

[Joao]

enlarger lens? no shutter!

My three enlarger lenses have no shutter either, but they are much smaller in size.
There is indeed the possibility of this being a LF lens (or part of a LF lens) ; there are many similarities with the lens shown here
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=72909

 

[matt_s]

some ideas...

some ideas...

The most unusual thing about the lens is that it has no focus ring- and that 48mm is not a common mount size.

So, 48mm rules out most cine, movie and tv cameras (some tv cameras do not need focus-able lenses)- way too big.

No focus ability rules out most 35mm cameras, exceptions like the old Contax rangefinders and others had the focusing in the body- not the lens, but this mount does not gel.

Types of cameras that do not need focus-able lenses:

Large format. This is certainly a possibility, although the lens seems a bit small for this, LF would be my first guess.

Special Application: Military, airplane, surveillance cameras and the like. Like the old Kodak Aero-Ektars, no focus provisions but sought after by large format types.

TLR cameras. Twin lens cameras rack their lens boards in and out to focus two lenses at once. This is a French lens, and there is at least one french TLR that used Berthiot lenses (SEM)- but the 165mm length is very odd for a TLR. Could be a Tele version of a camera, but the mount size seems too big.

Good luck with the search. I would like to mount that lens to a board to see what the image circle looks like, that would tell us some more.

Matt

 

[matt_s]

Found a SEMflex that had 150mm lenses, but the 165mm still makes me think large format.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28559684@N03/3997258449/

 

[Neare]

It's an enlarger lens for large format neg's probably
The standard for 4x5 is between 130-150mm. Some 150mm can also cover up to 8x10. At 165mm, it's either for 5x7 or 8x10 most likely.

Either that or it could be from a Graflex D sort of camera. But it's probably an enlarger lens. 🙂

 

[Nomad Z]

My three enlarger lenses have no shutter either, but they are much smaller in size.
There is indeed the possibility of this being a LF lens (or part of a LF lens) ; there are many similarities with the lens shown here
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=72909

On the page linked to above, there is this link...

http://www.collection-appareils.fr/...ue&PHPSESSID=333965b3c0b5e4652c9d3802b532215d

...to scans of a Som Berthiot catalogue. On page 13, there is a range of f4.5 lenses, including a 165mm. It says the format is 10x15cm. The barrel design looks different, but perhaps these are an earlier or later version of the same series of lenses. My dodgy use of Google translate yielded the following...

Objective a large aperture, a volume small enough to be housed in a folding a hand. Ideal for taking great snapshots, it is required on all appliances shutters plates.

We also recommend for color photography, groups, landscape and portraiture.

So, something like...

A large aperture lens, small enough to fit a folding hand camera. Ideal for taking great snapshots, suitable for plate cameras with focal plane shutters(?).

We also recommend for color photography, groups, landscape and portraiture.

Can a French speaker translate better?

 

[johannielscom]

Plate camera with a focal plane shutter would be (for example) the Graflex Speed series of cameras. Also the Rittreck cameras.

 

[rxmd]

suitable for plate cameras with focal plane shutters (?).

The original says "appareils à obturateurs de plaques". No mention of plate cameras; an "obturateur de plaque" is simply a focal plane shutter.

You probably could still use it as an enlarger lens if you found an enlarger with a 48mm baseboard.

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Extracts from the Lens Collectors Vademecum on Berthiot lenses:

"The new era brought in
anastigmats such as the Stellor, perhaps in the early 1920's, the Flor by 1911, and the Olor by about 1915. It
is impossible to say much at present about the layouts used, but it seems these did vary for lenses of the
same name and both Flor and Olor can be Q15 type designs. But they may also have used triplets in the
slower versions. There is a suggestion that they did not publicize their designs very much since they are
absent from one very extensive list (Kingslake, in Henney and Dudley) and are not in the early editions of Cox." (...)

"Flor:
This was a trade name used for several series, often of Gauss type. Cox 'Optics' suggests it is of 6 or 7
glasses Gauss in the f2.8 and f1.5 Flors respectively, but that the slower f4.5 and f3.5 are triplets with 4 (Q15)
or 5 glasses (roughly Ros 036).
Series Ic f4.5 200mm at No218,40x. This will be one of a series but is noted as fitted to a
13x18cm Fiamma at auction.
f1.5 50mm for M39, Layout Ber005
f1.5 55mm This was an impressive looking lens on the Pontiac Lynx de Nuit for
3x4cm. The product was announced from Oct 1942, but deliveries were delayed to 1945, when it was coated.
f2.0 50mm Gauss, Q18 One application was to Exakta as a f2.0/50mm
standard lens, and also as f2.8/75mm for VP Exakta as below.
f2.8 50, (75)mm, It was used on the Lynx II from about 1944 and Vial suggests it
was a 6-glass Gauss ie.Q18. A later camera, Lynx III for 35mm film used interchangable lenses, and here the
Flor was accompanied by Olor f3.2 (?)and/or f3.5(?) 38mm (5 glass), Flor f1.5/55mm (7 glass) and
TeleBerthiot f2.5/75mm."

I think the lens was used on these type of (French) cameras - the below one is also fitted with a Berthiot lense albeit a 135mm Perigraphe:

 

[Joao]

Thank you all for the informations and opinions.

NomadZ - I had seen the Berthiot catalogue in that same link. My French is quite fluent and I understood what hey wrote - however I was still in doubt due to differences in the design of the barrel; but maybe that is the closest bet after all. It remains to be found what is the camera it was intended for.

I will keep searching and will post all the positive findings

Thank you again
Joao