gabrielcik
Member
Hi,
I just started making bw prints... This is my equipment:
Durst m301 with nikon el 2.8 (old version)
Ilford rc iv paper
Ilford multigrade dev
Stop
Rapidfix
I also use ilford filters
My questions:
Often happens that my photos get some white border expecially at the bottom, if i am not mistaken this happen when i put the photo in the rapid fix (but i may be wrong)... I thought about a problem with the exposure... But strange...
What do u think about this?
I also noticed that the exposure depend on the iso of a film is it correct? Iso 100 film need longer exposure than higher iso film (with iso 3200, i use very short exposure just a couple of seconds, if not everything became dark).
In what way the temperature influence the development of the photo?
Can u suggest me a good book where i can find the answer to my questions?
Thx!
I just started making bw prints... This is my equipment:
Durst m301 with nikon el 2.8 (old version)
Ilford rc iv paper
Ilford multigrade dev
Stop
Rapidfix
I also use ilford filters
My questions:
Often happens that my photos get some white border expecially at the bottom, if i am not mistaken this happen when i put the photo in the rapid fix (but i may be wrong)... I thought about a problem with the exposure... But strange...
What do u think about this?
I also noticed that the exposure depend on the iso of a film is it correct? Iso 100 film need longer exposure than higher iso film (with iso 3200, i use very short exposure just a couple of seconds, if not everything became dark).
In what way the temperature influence the development of the photo?
Can u suggest me a good book where i can find the answer to my questions?
Thx!
jbrianfoto
Established
Well - where to start. The white boarder at the bottom of your print - if it is a gradual lightening of the image, you may have a masking issue in the enlarger - could be the negative carrier is not fully or properly seated (a scan of the print would help to decide). Or possibly, if you are using an under-the-lens filter holder, the filter bracket may be shading the bottom of the print.
Print time (exposure) is not directly tied to ISO of the film, it's a factor of negative density (being a bit simplistic here). There are two factors to consider; Minimum time needed to make a maximum black tone as printed thru the edge of the negative (using a series step-sheet exposure to determine) and then you vary contrast to control the highlights.
A book that explains this well? There are a few; The Zone VI Workshop (what I used and still refer to from time to time) and Ansel Adams The Print.
Other folks here on the forum will certainly have their own suggestions - there are many ways to skin a cat in the darkroom.
Hope this helps,
Jeromie
Print time (exposure) is not directly tied to ISO of the film, it's a factor of negative density (being a bit simplistic here). There are two factors to consider; Minimum time needed to make a maximum black tone as printed thru the edge of the negative (using a series step-sheet exposure to determine) and then you vary contrast to control the highlights.
A book that explains this well? There are a few; The Zone VI Workshop (what I used and still refer to from time to time) and Ansel Adams The Print.
Other folks here on the forum will certainly have their own suggestions - there are many ways to skin a cat in the darkroom.
Hope this helps,
Jeromie
markus_h_photography
Established
Hi.
Firstly the ISO of the film won't have anything to do with exposure time. Density of the neg is what determines that. That's why pretty much for every print you should be making a little test strip. Also the distance of the enlarger head to the base board with paper. Generally if you are making an 8x10 print it'll require more exposure time than a 5x7 as the enlarger head is further up and therefore the lightsource is weaker.
The warmer the developer, the less development time. Pretty much the same as when your developing film. The developer is more "active" the warmer it is.
Now to your white border issue. Can you post a photo of one of these prints?
Cheers.
Firstly the ISO of the film won't have anything to do with exposure time. Density of the neg is what determines that. That's why pretty much for every print you should be making a little test strip. Also the distance of the enlarger head to the base board with paper. Generally if you are making an 8x10 print it'll require more exposure time than a 5x7 as the enlarger head is further up and therefore the lightsource is weaker.
The warmer the developer, the less development time. Pretty much the same as when your developing film. The developer is more "active" the warmer it is.
Now to your white border issue. Can you post a photo of one of these prints?
Cheers.
pixelated
Established
Ilford has some getting started information on their website.
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/applications/page.asp?n=16
Temperature will speed up the developer, but for printing, it is not a major concern unless the temperatures are very high (maybe + or - 40 C)
http://www.ilfordphoto.com/applications/page.asp?n=16
Temperature will speed up the developer, but for printing, it is not a major concern unless the temperatures are very high (maybe + or - 40 C)
jbrianfoto
Established
It's a good idea to establish habits in the lab that you can repeat over and over; chemical dilution and brand, chemical temperature, film type, paper type, etc, etc. Lock down those factors then you can eliminate other problems in your technique. This applies to many things in life.
gabrielcik
Member
Hi,
Thanks for your replies
I put the filter not under the lens but right on the film... Not in the filter box since the dimension of the filter is bigger than the space in the box... (I don't like the idea of cuting the filter
I was thinking that the white border is due the the red square inside the repro vision, maybe if i remove it will be better... I notice it maks the informations about the film which apper in red on the "table" of the enlarger.
Maybe i will really try to post a photo if i don't find a solution.
About chemical, how long i can re-use them? I made 250c of each component (in the correct quatities of water and liquid) for printing small photos... I printed 2-3 photos and then stored them in 3 bottles...
How can i notice when a chemical is exhausted?
A last question what happen if i leave a photo inside the developer for a longer time than requested?
Thanks a lot
Thanks for your replies
I put the filter not under the lens but right on the film... Not in the filter box since the dimension of the filter is bigger than the space in the box... (I don't like the idea of cuting the filter
I was thinking that the white border is due the the red square inside the repro vision, maybe if i remove it will be better... I notice it maks the informations about the film which apper in red on the "table" of the enlarger.
Maybe i will really try to post a photo if i don't find a solution.
About chemical, how long i can re-use them? I made 250c of each component (in the correct quatities of water and liquid) for printing small photos... I printed 2-3 photos and then stored them in 3 bottles...
How can i notice when a chemical is exhausted?
A last question what happen if i leave a photo inside the developer for a longer time than requested?
Thanks a lot
markus_h_photography
Established
Hi.
Back when I used to print my own work I found I couldn't really re-use the developer after about 2 days. I found it would go a brown colour. This is oxidation due to exposure to air. Also you'll find that your developing time gets longer and longer as it gets exhausted.
If you leave the photo in the developer longer than required? Try it and see. One of the best ways to learn is to experiment a bit.
Back when I used to print my own work I found I couldn't really re-use the developer after about 2 days. I found it would go a brown colour. This is oxidation due to exposure to air. Also you'll find that your developing time gets longer and longer as it gets exhausted.
If you leave the photo in the developer longer than required? Try it and see. One of the best ways to learn is to experiment a bit.
nikon_sam
Shooter of Film...
Use a timer when developing prints and develop all prints for the same amount of time (depending on paper, fiber or RC...developer...temp of developer...etc...)
Consistency in developing will help you make adjustments that make sense and will get you to your final image quicker...
Consistency in developing will help you make adjustments that make sense and will get you to your final image quicker...
jbrianfoto
Established
I always use distiller water in my chemicals. The fix can be used over and over as long as it does not get too contaminated. Having a stop bath or a water stage between developer and fix helps there. Distiller water helps keep crud from growing in the bottle.
Use a timer to regulate how long you develop the print. I print on FB paper and I run 3 minutes per print. After you set the print in the dev, I start the timer. I pay attention to how long it takes before the black areas begging to show up and note the time. This is determined by many small things, mostly by the temp of the developer. If you are printing all day, once that 'reveal' time starts to get longer, it's time to replace the developer. It will also oxidize and start to get dark.
Use a timer to regulate how long you develop the print. I print on FB paper and I run 3 minutes per print. After you set the print in the dev, I start the timer. I pay attention to how long it takes before the black areas begging to show up and note the time. This is determined by many small things, mostly by the temp of the developer. If you are printing all day, once that 'reveal' time starts to get longer, it's time to replace the developer. It will also oxidize and start to get dark.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Not exactly. Once there is too much silver in the fixer, it will appear to work, but the prints will eventually stain and discolour. This is why fixer manufacturers recommend maximum areas of paper through the fixer.
Cheers,
R.
jbrianfoto
Established
Roger is correct.....
Roger is correct.....
Roger is right - I hadn't gone into too much detail about that portion of archival processing. Fix does go bad, there are techniques to prolong it's life, but it will get laden with silver and your prints can stain. I actually have two bottles of fixer - one for the first fix, then after I am all done printing, I pull all of my final prints from the rinse, keep them in a fresh tray of water and fix for a second time with 'virgin' paper fixer. Then I selenium tone each, perma wash, then a final wash in my print washer.
The second fixing and selenium is not absolutely necessary - some of us do it - some do not. It's a preference. If you keep your chems in good shape, and keep your fingers off the paper (if you have chems on your hands) - you will be fine.
It's a little easier if you are printing R/C paper, but you do still have to be mindful of your chemistry getting old. Nothing stinks more than looking at your nice, dry prints only to find weird stains on the paper.
I have a hard time keeping track of how many prints I've run thru my fix. A redneck way I determine if my fix is getting old is thru smell and color. The fix I use (Kodak Rapid Fixer minus the hardener) - is pretty clear when new. As it starts to get old, it begins to look a little yellow (best observed by flipping a print over and looking at the white backside).
Good wet darkroom techniques are easy to learn, but do require discipline. All of the extra effort is worth it in my eyes. It is relatively easy to just click on the 'PRINT' button and watch an Epson spit out the image. When you have to setup a lab and pay attention to all of the variables, it makes me more careful about what I print and that adds value for me to that print. The important thing is to have fun and get out there and shoot !
Roger is correct.....
Roger is right
- I hadn't gone into too much detail about that portion of archival processing. Fix does go bad, there are techniques to prolong it's life, but it will get laden with silver and your prints can stain. I actually have two bottles of fixer - one for the first fix, then after I am all done printing, I pull all of my final prints from the rinse, keep them in a fresh tray of water and fix for a second time with 'virgin' paper fixer. Then I selenium tone each, perma wash, then a final wash in my print washer.The second fixing and selenium is not absolutely necessary - some of us do it - some do not. It's a preference. If you keep your chems in good shape, and keep your fingers off the paper (if you have chems on your hands) - you will be fine.
It's a little easier if you are printing R/C paper, but you do still have to be mindful of your chemistry getting old. Nothing stinks more than looking at your nice, dry prints only to find weird stains on the paper.
I have a hard time keeping track of how many prints I've run thru my fix. A redneck way I determine if my fix is getting old is thru smell and color. The fix I use (Kodak Rapid Fixer minus the hardener) - is pretty clear when new. As it starts to get old, it begins to look a little yellow (best observed by flipping a print over and looking at the white backside).
Good wet darkroom techniques are easy to learn, but do require discipline. All of the extra effort is worth it in my eyes. It is relatively easy to just click on the 'PRINT' button and watch an Epson spit out the image. When you have to setup a lab and pay attention to all of the variables, it makes me more careful about what I print and that adds value for me to that print. The important thing is to have fun and get out there and shoot !
gabrielcik
Member
Hi,
So from what i understood the developer is the one which faster lose its qualities.. What about the stop?
I red somewhere that i can print in bw also a color negative by using the same chemicals i use for the bw... The trick works also for diapo or since they are not negative i need some different type of paper or chemicals?
What is the utility of the "V" which is on the film carrier inside the enlarger? It appers in red (covered by the filter) on the baseboard.
Thanks and sorry for so many questions.
So from what i understood the developer is the one which faster lose its qualities.. What about the stop?
I red somewhere that i can print in bw also a color negative by using the same chemicals i use for the bw... The trick works also for diapo or since they are not negative i need some different type of paper or chemicals?
What is the utility of the "V" which is on the film carrier inside the enlarger? It appers in red (covered by the filter) on the baseboard.
Thanks and sorry for so many questions.
titrisol
Bottom Feeder
Feel sorry for the questions you don;t ask.... asking is good
READ from old books, such as Hedecoe's to understand the basics
I think you need to start from the beginning, get a manual for your DURST enlarger, Jollinger has some of them
you will find that the M enlargers are similar to one another and can help you understand yours better
- Enlarging times depend on several factors:
- Negative density (dark areas)
- Contrast filter
- Paper
Ge tthe info from Ilford and experiment.
- KEEP NOTES OF WHAT YOU DO!
- It is always a good idea to cut strips of paper and use them to make test strips, in which you expose the strip graudally, and that way you have a full scale of exposures for your negative. Explanation here:
- Also it is a good idea to have a system to determine contrast needed in each negative
and KEEP NOTES!!!!
- The white band you are seeing maybe vignetting from the enlarger or a shadow from your paper holder, try enlarging larger than the paper size, and place some paper in the middle
if the band is not there anymore, that is the culprit
- The V in your enlarger is the focus indicator!
check the manual
Chemicals:
- Developer loses activity and as times to develop become longer you will know it is becomeing wekaer. Paper developer is usually stronger than film developer and thus you need a different one. In the 70s-80s ther eused to be the Universal developers but I have not seen them in a long time.
- Stop bath is usually an acid, so you can buy some pH indicator such as bromocresol blue or bromothymol blue which will turn blue (black under sfety light) when acidity is not enough
you can add some extra acid to the bath to compensate.
- Fixer loses activity as well, as it gets saturated with silver. RC papers last longer, but follow the specs in Ilford website
I prefer to use most of my chemical once only, that way they are always fresh, and the fixer is not saturated with silver when it goes down the drain
READ from old books, such as Hedecoe's to understand the basics
I think you need to start from the beginning, get a manual for your DURST enlarger, Jollinger has some of them
you will find that the M enlargers are similar to one another and can help you understand yours better
- Enlarging times depend on several factors:
- Negative density (dark areas)
- Contrast filter
- Paper
Ge tthe info from Ilford and experiment.
- KEEP NOTES OF WHAT YOU DO!
- It is always a good idea to cut strips of paper and use them to make test strips, in which you expose the strip graudally, and that way you have a full scale of exposures for your negative. Explanation here:
- Also it is a good idea to have a system to determine contrast needed in each negative
and KEEP NOTES!!!!
- The white band you are seeing maybe vignetting from the enlarger or a shadow from your paper holder, try enlarging larger than the paper size, and place some paper in the middle
if the band is not there anymore, that is the culprit
- The V in your enlarger is the focus indicator!
check the manual
Chemicals:
- Developer loses activity and as times to develop become longer you will know it is becomeing wekaer. Paper developer is usually stronger than film developer and thus you need a different one. In the 70s-80s ther eused to be the Universal developers but I have not seen them in a long time.
- Stop bath is usually an acid, so you can buy some pH indicator such as bromocresol blue or bromothymol blue which will turn blue (black under sfety light) when acidity is not enough
you can add some extra acid to the bath to compensate.
- Fixer loses activity as well, as it gets saturated with silver. RC papers last longer, but follow the specs in Ilford website
I prefer to use most of my chemical once only, that way they are always fresh, and the fixer is not saturated with silver when it goes down the drain
jbrianfoto
Established
Kodak Panalure RC
Kodak Panalure RC
So from what i understood the developer is the one which faster lose its qualities.. What about the stop?
Answer - Developer oxidizes and starts to turn brown. Replace it when that just begins to happen. Your prints will start to take longer to fully develop as the developer get weaker.
I red somewhere that i can print in bw also a color negative by using the same chemicals i use for the bw... The trick works also for diapo or since they are not negative i need some different type of paper or chemicals?
Answer - You can print a color negative with b/w paper and b/w chemicals. The contrast is going to be different because of the reddish/orange tint of color negs. Kodak made a paper called Panalure RC. It is specifically made for printing color negatives on b/w paper using normal b/w variable contrast filters.
What is the utility of the "V" which is on the film carrier inside the enlarger? It appers in red (covered by the filter) on the baseboard.
Answer - most likely the V is for allowing the negative number of the frame that you are printing to be printed onto the paper. That is only a guess since. Send us a photo of the carrier - all of the 301 carriers I can see on the web do not have a V cut into them.
Kodak Panalure RC
So from what i understood the developer is the one which faster lose its qualities.. What about the stop?
Answer - Developer oxidizes and starts to turn brown. Replace it when that just begins to happen. Your prints will start to take longer to fully develop as the developer get weaker.
I red somewhere that i can print in bw also a color negative by using the same chemicals i use for the bw... The trick works also for diapo or since they are not negative i need some different type of paper or chemicals?
Answer - You can print a color negative with b/w paper and b/w chemicals. The contrast is going to be different because of the reddish/orange tint of color negs. Kodak made a paper called Panalure RC. It is specifically made for printing color negatives on b/w paper using normal b/w variable contrast filters.
What is the utility of the "V" which is on the film carrier inside the enlarger? It appers in red (covered by the filter) on the baseboard.
Answer - most likely the V is for allowing the negative number of the frame that you are printing to be printed onto the paper. That is only a guess since. Send us a photo of the carrier - all of the 301 carriers I can see on the web do not have a V cut into them.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
It helps a lot to post picture with problem shown.
Try RTFM. At least for developer it will tell you for how long. I did and I know it is 24 hours
I keep it for 4-5 minutes, longer sometimes. RC paper, Ilford developer.
If I keep it shorter, not all of details will reveals.
titrisol
Bottom Feeder
Anything that appears red on the table will be white!
The "informations" of the film you refer to is the name and numbers?
IIRC, the M301 was only for 35mm film ana I think only covers the 24x36mm of the image, so that should be out of the enlarging area and thus white on paper. You should have a negative carrier?
Chemicals, you can reuse them a couple of times, I think you are making 10x15cm prints?
Developer - times will get longer with time and it will get brown
Stop bath - use only once
Fixer - use it a few times, do not over use it or your prints will begin to brass
Now, if you leave your prints in the dveloper for a very long time, they will start to change.... experiment if you will but is always good to have a method and a discipline to develop for 60-90s
The "informations" of the film you refer to is the name and numbers?
IIRC, the M301 was only for 35mm film ana I think only covers the 24x36mm of the image, so that should be out of the enlarging area and thus white on paper. You should have a negative carrier?
Chemicals, you can reuse them a couple of times, I think you are making 10x15cm prints?
Developer - times will get longer with time and it will get brown
Stop bath - use only once
Fixer - use it a few times, do not over use it or your prints will begin to brass
Now, if you leave your prints in the dveloper for a very long time, they will start to change.... experiment if you will but is always good to have a method and a discipline to develop for 60-90s
Hi,
Thanks for your replies
I put the filter not under the lens but right on the film... Not in the filter box since the dimension of the filter is bigger than the space in the box... (I don't like the idea of cuting the filter
I was thinking that the white border is due the the red square inside the repro vision, maybe if i remove it will be better... I notice it maks the informations about the film which apper in red on the "table" of the enlarger.
Maybe i will really try to post a photo if i don't find a solution.
About chemical, how long i can re-use them? I made 250c of each component (in the correct quatities of water and liquid) for printing small photos... I printed 2-3 photos and then stored them in 3 bottles...
How can i notice when a chemical is exhausted?
A last question what happen if i leave a photo inside the developer for a longer time than requested?
Thanks a lot
shortstop
Well-known
The "V" is a focusing aid; you turn the gray knob that controls the green/red filter afrer advancing the negative carrier until the V is above the optics. On the table you'll see a splitted green/red image. Turning the focusing knob you have to obtain the diseapparance of the splitted image and magically you are on focus. Believe or not it works. Hope you understand my explanation. Sorry for my not good english.
gabrielcik
Member
Hi,
Thx for all info.
I understood how the v works, but at least on my enlarger, when the Red and green disappear on the v, the image is not totally in focus. I will try again.
After trying and trying i was able to print without the white line but i noticed that some of my photos start to develope stange pink or blue spots... Probably they are not well fixed?
I use rapid fix for about 1 minute...
What happen if i wash photos only for few seconds? Maybe this is the reason?
I try to learn from mistakes.
I print 13x18.
Thx!
Thx for all info.
I understood how the v works, but at least on my enlarger, when the Red and green disappear on the v, the image is not totally in focus. I will try again.
After trying and trying i was able to print without the white line but i noticed that some of my photos start to develope stange pink or blue spots... Probably they are not well fixed?
I use rapid fix for about 1 minute...
What happen if i wash photos only for few seconds? Maybe this is the reason?
I try to learn from mistakes.
I print 13x18.
Thx!
titrisol
Bottom Feeder
Yes rewash rewash
Remaining fixer will make those spots and damage the prints
wash them again, you need several changes of water to wash properly
Remaining fixer will make those spots and damage the prints
wash them again, you need several changes of water to wash properly
JoeV
Thin Air, Bright Sun
Gabriel: I don't know if anyone answered, but it's best to not place the contrast filter directly upon the negative, as any scratch or dust on the filter might be visible in the print. Try rigging a bracket to suspend the filter directly below the enlarger lens.
Regarding your question about stop bath going bad, its purpose is to stop the development by changing the pH of the wet emulsion from a base to an acid. So as long as the stop remains acidic, it should be okay. Many of us use indicator stop bath, giving a color change to indicate when it loses its acidity.
If you wish to extend the life of the stop and fixer, you could use a water bath between developer and stop, and stop and fix.
~Joe
Regarding your question about stop bath going bad, its purpose is to stop the development by changing the pH of the wet emulsion from a base to an acid. So as long as the stop remains acidic, it should be okay. Many of us use indicator stop bath, giving a color change to indicate when it loses its acidity.
If you wish to extend the life of the stop and fixer, you could use a water bath between developer and stop, and stop and fix.
~Joe