N.delaRua
Well-known
Wow, what a spectacular weekend I had. Went to my gf's brothers wedding in Gloucester, MA on the coast of the Atlantic. Spectacular place...
While there I was given a 5DmII with a 28-70 L and a 50 f/1.4 to help shoot the wedding. I actually left the M6 at home, but as both of these camera are or have been workhorses for wedding photographers, I thought it might be interesting to share some of my thoughts.
First, a 5DmII with a 24-70 L is freaking heavy especially with a flash. Its uncomfortably heavy and large, and I found it distracting. The viewfinder is not that bright with this lens either. I switched to the 50 because that's all I shoot on the Leica and was instantly more comfortable with the camera. A 5d with a 50 is a nice combo, really nice. I didn't find the 50 tack sharp wide open (seemed like it suffered from some spherical aberrations), but it is quite nice because it "softness" is perfect for women in natural light (dreamy in the imperfect sort of way). I shot it stopped down at 2.0 or 2.2 most of the time with great results (also because I think my summicron has proven to me that 2.0 with a 50 is the perfect amount of DOF for portraits).
The major setback for me was the UI. The meter was over exposing every once in a while because the subjects were in the shadows, but the background was not. I switched to manual, and could change shutter speeds but not aperture. This drove me nuts... I turned and pressed everything and still could not figure it out. Next I tried aperture priority and attempted to set a -1 EV. To do this it takes two hands and taking your eye from the viewfinder, but even after doing so the exposure did not change (I checked by metering on the same thing, no shutter speed change, the histogram looked the same too... maybe it was I could not tell). Most buttons have two functions dependent on what command wheel is turned while the button is pressed. A nice way to lessen the button count, but I was stumped a couple of times with this camera. In thirty minutes I was comfortable in aperture priority mode, but never figured out manual mode.
Other than the UI, I had no problems jumping head first with this camera. Its easy to see how someone could carve out a career with this camera along with a few lenses and a flash. The autofocus was awesome with the flash indoors and no light. Blew me away because I could barely see through the viewfinder and had to guess a lot with respect to composition because it was so hard to see.
Some other observations, the RAW files are huge (like 28 mb a piece!), I don't like the shutter button (its just too vague and I thought the stroke was pretty long), and the skin tones did not always look great on the LCD (sure this could be fixed in post).
It seems like a camera more setup to shoot in nearly total automated mode i.e. evaluative metering, autofocus, and program. Those are the settings where it got out of the way most of all.
When I was taking portraits, I wish I had the M6. Its so much more compact and easier to lock in exposure and just focus on compositions. There is nothing like an OVF with a red dot that says shoot away! DSLR viewfinders are cluttered.
The M6 is so much less intimidating than a 5d with a 24-70 L (which I ditched right away)... Its just too big. For group shots and action, it would be humanely impossible to compete with the 5D unless I had a wide angle,scale focused, and a big honking flash.
Fun experience... In summary, great camera, tough as nails, too heavy, needs a more intuitive UI, and with smaller lenses very balanced. If I was working with a camera to put food on my table, I would not hesitate to get one, but for my life the M6 does what I need.
I will share some photos when I get the files...
What I really took away from this experience, is that I could shoot digital like my film camera if I really tried i.e. one lens and a body. Makes my lust for a X100s increase even more because I was constantly looking for a shutter speed and aperture dial.
While there I was given a 5DmII with a 28-70 L and a 50 f/1.4 to help shoot the wedding. I actually left the M6 at home, but as both of these camera are or have been workhorses for wedding photographers, I thought it might be interesting to share some of my thoughts.
First, a 5DmII with a 24-70 L is freaking heavy especially with a flash. Its uncomfortably heavy and large, and I found it distracting. The viewfinder is not that bright with this lens either. I switched to the 50 because that's all I shoot on the Leica and was instantly more comfortable with the camera. A 5d with a 50 is a nice combo, really nice. I didn't find the 50 tack sharp wide open (seemed like it suffered from some spherical aberrations), but it is quite nice because it "softness" is perfect for women in natural light (dreamy in the imperfect sort of way). I shot it stopped down at 2.0 or 2.2 most of the time with great results (also because I think my summicron has proven to me that 2.0 with a 50 is the perfect amount of DOF for portraits).
The major setback for me was the UI. The meter was over exposing every once in a while because the subjects were in the shadows, but the background was not. I switched to manual, and could change shutter speeds but not aperture. This drove me nuts... I turned and pressed everything and still could not figure it out. Next I tried aperture priority and attempted to set a -1 EV. To do this it takes two hands and taking your eye from the viewfinder, but even after doing so the exposure did not change (I checked by metering on the same thing, no shutter speed change, the histogram looked the same too... maybe it was I could not tell). Most buttons have two functions dependent on what command wheel is turned while the button is pressed. A nice way to lessen the button count, but I was stumped a couple of times with this camera. In thirty minutes I was comfortable in aperture priority mode, but never figured out manual mode.
Other than the UI, I had no problems jumping head first with this camera. Its easy to see how someone could carve out a career with this camera along with a few lenses and a flash. The autofocus was awesome with the flash indoors and no light. Blew me away because I could barely see through the viewfinder and had to guess a lot with respect to composition because it was so hard to see.
Some other observations, the RAW files are huge (like 28 mb a piece!), I don't like the shutter button (its just too vague and I thought the stroke was pretty long), and the skin tones did not always look great on the LCD (sure this could be fixed in post).
It seems like a camera more setup to shoot in nearly total automated mode i.e. evaluative metering, autofocus, and program. Those are the settings where it got out of the way most of all.
When I was taking portraits, I wish I had the M6. Its so much more compact and easier to lock in exposure and just focus on compositions. There is nothing like an OVF with a red dot that says shoot away! DSLR viewfinders are cluttered.
The M6 is so much less intimidating than a 5d with a 24-70 L (which I ditched right away)... Its just too big. For group shots and action, it would be humanely impossible to compete with the 5D unless I had a wide angle,scale focused, and a big honking flash.
Fun experience... In summary, great camera, tough as nails, too heavy, needs a more intuitive UI, and with smaller lenses very balanced. If I was working with a camera to put food on my table, I would not hesitate to get one, but for my life the M6 does what I need.
I will share some photos when I get the files...
What I really took away from this experience, is that I could shoot digital like my film camera if I really tried i.e. one lens and a body. Makes my lust for a X100s increase even more because I was constantly looking for a shutter speed and aperture dial.
whited3
Well-known
Interesting perspective. I came from the freaking heavy side to starting to shoot film rangefinders. Totally different experience & totally different virtues.
I flip flop between wanting to get rid of one system and then feeling I desperately need both.
I flip flop between wanting to get rid of one system and then feeling I desperately need both.
tempest68
Established
Do you remember the weird power switch on the 5D? It needed to be moved one more notch and the rear wheel would have been active in M(anual) mode to allow for adjusting aperture.
I whole-heartedly agree on the shutter button. I was used to it on my 5D II, and so when switching to the EOS 3 for some good ole shooting with film fun I sometimes fire off a shot I didn't intend to because the shutter button on the EOS 3 is so much more sensitive (and the AF is so much better on the older EOS 3 too).
I just got an M8 last week. I'm now thinking the 5D II will be up for sale soon. I'll keep the EOS 3, 24-70mm L f2.8, and 85mm f1.8 as I love the EOS 3 so much more than the 5D II in how it shoots/handles.
I whole-heartedly agree on the shutter button. I was used to it on my 5D II, and so when switching to the EOS 3 for some good ole shooting with film fun I sometimes fire off a shot I didn't intend to because the shutter button on the EOS 3 is so much more sensitive (and the AF is so much better on the older EOS 3 too).
I just got an M8 last week. I'm now thinking the 5D II will be up for sale soon. I'll keep the EOS 3, 24-70mm L f2.8, and 85mm f1.8 as I love the EOS 3 so much more than the 5D II in how it shoots/handles.
N.delaRua
Well-known
Wow thanks for the solution. PS I think that is absurd. I would have never figured that out because that non-descript setting on the on off switch is just that: non-descript.
That was the one frustrating part of that camera, the UI.
I thought the autofocus was really good especially with the flash in the dark. I think most of the time it missed focus was user error because I could not always find where the AF lock was when half pressing the shutter. Too vague.
That was the one frustrating part of that camera, the UI.
I thought the autofocus was really good especially with the flash in the dark. I think most of the time it missed focus was user error because I could not always find where the AF lock was when half pressing the shutter. Too vague.
2WK
Rangefinder User
Ah yes, the ol rear wheel lock 5d trick. I carried a mkii for a few years. Then I got an m6 and fell in love. I ended up selling the 5d and getting into the fuji x system for my digital encounters and have been pretty happy. The 5d was nice although I did get a bit tired of the colors, but that is subjective. I do miss that camera when I need to shoot tethered though.
N.delaRua
Well-known
To be honest, I could not tell you what I did not like about the colors. Granted I was viewing them on the LCD screen which is not really representative of what they will look like on screen or in print. Maybe the they were just too cool for me...
I was blown away by the operating speed of that thing. It felt like a supercomputer considering I was shooting RAW... it never seemed to slow down.
I was blown away by the operating speed of that thing. It felt like a supercomputer considering I was shooting RAW... it never seemed to slow down.
2WK
Rangefinder User
Well, they can look good. But it does has this warm, creamy signature that I kind of got tired of. I probably ran 80,000 raw files through it and then my work got a Nikon D3. I much preferred the look of those files. Even though they are much lower resolution, that sensor is wonderful.
CactusJuice
Member
How can you say this if you were only chimping the pics? And you may not know this but the LCD image is a JPG based on a configurable preset. The LCD's sharpness, contrast, color tone and saturation were all dependent on the preset you were using.
And which Canon 50mm was it, the 1.2, 1.4 or 1.8? The 1.8 is soft wide open. But again, this would be difficult to know by looking at the camera's LCD.
Same goes for skin tones and colors . As you mentioned, the LCD image and the RAW image are two completely different things. The RAW files shine when processed!
The meter was set to evaluative and overexposing in tough lighting conditions, that's not necessarily the camera's fault. Switch it to center weighted or spot.
The viewfinder doesn't have to be cluttered. Sounds like all the focus points were turned on. I normally have only single point enabled when not shooting action.
I don't believe the camera was intended to be used in full auto or program modes, especially for something as important as a wedding. This camera is really easy to shoot in manual mode. It's too bad the owner didn't give you a crash course. A few more hours with it and I bet you would have the hang of it.
thirtyfivefifty
Noctilust survivor
The thing about the 5D2, and pretty much every DSLR, is you need to pretty much make it your own. This requires digging through the menus and customizing it to your style of shooting. I don't only customize the functions, I also customize the PictureStyle (some prefer the default interpretation of RAW files from their preferred editing program as a starting point).
From then on, every time I hand my 5D2 to someone else to use or try, I have to take a moment or two to explain how to function my camera because they will find the controls counter intuitive.
Other than that I don't find use any different from using rangefinders, or 35mm slrs, or whatever. Manual exposure is both there, but when using automatic programs, things such as metering are always changing, where things such as exposure lock need to be brought in. The user still is required to make decisions from shoot to screen , or shoot to print.
Side note: SLR users go for bright lenses because that's what we have to look through. It's for viewfinder brightness.
Many people get disappointed with results from DSLRs because it's thought that since you can put it in automatic mode and the fact that it's a digital camera that the camera does everything for you, but from my experience, there's no such thing as easier or automatic with DSLRs.
From then on, every time I hand my 5D2 to someone else to use or try, I have to take a moment or two to explain how to function my camera because they will find the controls counter intuitive.
Other than that I don't find use any different from using rangefinders, or 35mm slrs, or whatever. Manual exposure is both there, but when using automatic programs, things such as metering are always changing, where things such as exposure lock need to be brought in. The user still is required to make decisions from shoot to screen , or shoot to print.
Side note: SLR users go for bright lenses because that's what we have to look through. It's for viewfinder brightness.
Many people get disappointed with results from DSLRs because it's thought that since you can put it in automatic mode and the fact that it's a digital camera that the camera does everything for you, but from my experience, there's no such thing as easier or automatic with DSLRs.
computer controlled
Established
I have the original 5D, and love it. I really like the creamy files, and the rendering of the RAWs when using the 35mm f/2 lens is wonderful. I have a lot of lenses for it, but since using this borrowed M6 (notice a theme here?), i am selling the entire Canon set up to pay for this M6 =o] I have a Sony NEX-6 i can use for my digital.
noisycheese
Normal(ish) Human
JMHO, but I would take the M6 over any digital camera 100% of the time.
For weddings, and other events where people are involved, shoot Fuji Pro 400H - it has a great color palette with accurate skin tones. For landscapes, Fuji RVP (Velvia 50) is the king; this film is second to none for landscapes, nature and travel shots that are not too heavily people centered. For B&W street photography, documentary and night work, shoot Kodak Tri-X 400.
For Fine art B&W, shoot Fuji Acros 100.
Everyone has their own Tao (way) of photography; the above is mine and it works outstandingly well.
YMMV.
For weddings, and other events where people are involved, shoot Fuji Pro 400H - it has a great color palette with accurate skin tones. For landscapes, Fuji RVP (Velvia 50) is the king; this film is second to none for landscapes, nature and travel shots that are not too heavily people centered. For B&W street photography, documentary and night work, shoot Kodak Tri-X 400.
For Fine art B&W, shoot Fuji Acros 100.
Everyone has their own Tao (way) of photography; the above is mine and it works outstandingly well.
YMMV.
leicapixie
Well-known
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135522
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135522
Every single DSLR that i have looked through suffers from dim view, not seeing if it's sharp or where it's looking at.
It is all too vague! Shutter release can be managed.
The point of using an SLR/DSLR should be seeing exactly what the lens sees.. The screen is set for "Auto-Focus".
If i paid for the camera, it ought work for me!
The Leica M6 is so simple, so accurate and small and light.
It is immediately responsive. A 50mm is usually sufficient for most assignments, esp portraits with areas around. I hate heads on a stick..
Film is still available.
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135522
Every single DSLR that i have looked through suffers from dim view, not seeing if it's sharp or where it's looking at.
It is all too vague! Shutter release can be managed.
The point of using an SLR/DSLR should be seeing exactly what the lens sees.. The screen is set for "Auto-Focus".
If i paid for the camera, it ought work for me!
The Leica M6 is so simple, so accurate and small and light.
It is immediately responsive. A 50mm is usually sufficient for most assignments, esp portraits with areas around. I hate heads on a stick..
Film is still available.
Jamesruff
Member
i have a 5D2, and a M6TTL as well.
the 5D2 is nice, but i bought a EOS 1N, and love it way more than the 5D..
the 5D2 is nice, but i bought a EOS 1N, and love it way more than the 5D..
Roger Hicks
Veteran
hepcat
Former PH, USN
And that's exactly the problem with DSLRS... if you can't figure out how to work one without the manual, IMO it's not a good design. And no one can just pick one up now and shoot them manually without fighting the operating system.
And my question is why must the photographer dig through the menus in order to just pick up and shoot a camera on manual? A camera that has to be configured to do that is counter-intuitive. The Olympus E-1 was a nearly perfect DSLR as the controls were clear and simple; the menus few and concise. Any photographer could pick one up and shoot it just like a film camera in seconds without introduction and without any question about what the controls did. I'd love to see a current "pro" DSLR like that.
It's nice that current offerings are infinitely configurable, don't get me wrong; and there are undoubtedly photographers who do that. And it's nice that the manufacturers provide options for tailoring the output to suit, but it shouldn't be mandatory that you do those things in order to make the basic controls work; and pretty much all of the DSLRs in production now make you do that.