Ralph Gibson: Why would you ditch film in your 76th year?

jsrockit said:
I'm not biased against film... I may not use it as much anymore, but I will always enjoy looking at images made with film... because I love photographs and not only the process involved.
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That's where we differ. I've no interest in the photographs: I just like the process involved. At the end of every darkroom session I put all my prints in a metal bucket and set them on fire.
 
Koolzakukumba said:
That's where we differ. I've no interest in the photographs: I just like the process involved. At the end of every darkroom session I put all my prints in a metal bucket and set them on fire.
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Thanks for clarifying. Can you now stop judging other other people?

I find the arguments in this thread very tiresome and childish.

PS I shoot both film and digital. Don't shoot me.
 
At the end of every darkroom session I put all my prints in a metal bucket and set them on fire.
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When I was a wee lad in Glasgow, I thought all those stories about the East Coasters were exagerated. Now, I'm beginning to wonder...

;) :D
 
IMO, digital photography using digital cameras, computers, printers, and associated software is different from photography using film, film cameras, and enlargers. The result is similar (but not the same): an image recorded onto a substrate like paper.

Because they are different processes and not the same, the differences give credence to a preference of one over the other. (If they were the same, a preference of one over the other would be silly.)

Some people prefer digital over film for all kinds of reasons.
Some people have no preference and use both.
Some people use a hybrid workflow which usually combines the scanning and digital printing of a film based image.
Some people prefer film over digital for all kinds of reasons.

Digital folks don't like film folks saying that film photography is superior, but it is a valid opinion (due to the differences).

Film folks don't like being told by digital folks that film and digital photography is just the same, because clearly the processes are different, and some folks see a greater value in certain (not all) hand crafted products (without computers and software applications.)

Some were asking how far back does one have to go before artisanal no longer applies, as if there has been a gradual evolutionary change in photography from wet plate to rollfim, to 135 film, to digital capture. There has in fact been a revolutionary change in photography, a quantum leap, with the advent of digital photography and its reliance on computers and software. Personally, I can not apply the term artisanal to digital photography.

This is just my opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree. See my signature.
 
Koolzakukumba said:
What absolute rubbish. It's now bigoted to have an opinion backed up by reasons, whether you happen to accept them or not? What next? Am I a bigot if I prefer malt whisky to a blend? People like you see bigots round every corner and are usually the most intolerant of individuals.
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Hear, Hear!
 
Koolzakukumba said:
That doesn't necessarily follow at all. There could be a number of reasons. He might not be up to spending hours in the darkroom, he might have got a better deal financially from Leica to represent them and use their cameras, the galleries that represent him may have requested digital output or he might be selling so few prints that most of his output goes into books in which case digital might well be easier and more convenient for him. Since he's always had a good relationship with Leica, he could have used any digital rangefinder from the M8 onwards and switched to digital years ago instead of waiting until he's 75.
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It does not matter if it is one or a million readons. At the age of 76 he has decided to use digital instead of film because it is better for him. And he is probably the most capable person in the world to make that decision.
 
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People like me eh. Nice bait! I only mean claiming one specific work flow as the true artisanal craft is incorrect, and trying to explain why, and rather poorly.

It's a clearly a religious (or political?) kind of feeling, based on the tone people evoke. I fall into the camp of "film and digital". There is craft in the capture. There is craft in the process. I pick the processes that I enjoy and try to master, and that does help me get to output I'm happy with. I won't get good output from a process I dislike or don't know well. I won't get good output by simply mastering the process either.

Anyway, getting off the horse for a beer now.
 
jonasv said:
Thanks for clarifying. Can you now stop judging other other people?

I find the arguments in this thread very tiresome and childish.

PS I shoot both film and digital. Don't shoot me.
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Why not tell them to stop judging me? If you find the thread tiresome and childish, stop reading it. Personally, I've found it interesting. It's generated a lot of heat but some light as well. People have strong opinions - mostly against me it has to be said - but they've been fine in the main and no one has overstepped the mark - yet! :)
 
wogg said:
People like me eh. Nice bait! I only mean claiming one specific work flow as the true artisanal craft is incorrect, and trying to explain why, and rather poorly.

It's a clearly a religious (or political?) kind of feeling, based on the tone people evoke. I fall into the camp of "film and digital". There is craft in the capture. There is craft in the process. I pick the processes that I enjoy and try to master, and that does help me get to output I'm happy with. I won't get good output from a process I dislike or don't know well. I won't get good output by simply mastering the process either.

Anyway, getting off the horse for a beer now.
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Have one for me!
 
Chriscrawfordphoto said:
Here's an analogy: Have you ever noticed that "White Supremacists" are always the trashiest, least educated, least intelligent, least accomplished white people? Same with photographers who constantly harp on about how someone else's processes, materials, equipment, etc. are 'not as good'.
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That has to be one of the poorest and most <edited by moderator> analogies I've ever seen on the internet Chris.

What are you saying that Bruce is the least intelligent, lest accomplished lest educated?
Because you disagree with him.
I don't like some people processes because I have a different preference, you're not going to label me as a supremacist if I don't think the way you do things is 'not as good'?
Shheesh Chris You're a great photographer, but if you're that easy in your labelling of people I'll just pop you on ignore–because the kind of sentiment you've shown just makes me feel quite ill.
 
Sparrow said:
... no it isn't, "by hand" doesn't preclude computerisation except in your opinion I would contend :)
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Koolzakukumba said:
Then that's not a definition either but a contention. :)
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Photo_Smith said:
I'm afraid you're wrong. A Bootmaker who uses CAD design and a CNC Laser cutting machinery, then has a computer controlled stitcher doesn't mean he is making the boots by hand. (even if his hand controls the computer)

here is a definition from the dictionary:
A worker in a skilled trade, especially one that involves making things by hand.
"street markets where local artisans display handwoven textiles, painted ceramics, and leather goods etc.

It a simple definition, numerical controlled machinery isn't part of the artisans workflow; your contention is controlling a mouse telling a PC to make a print is not making it by hand.

The problem here is Artisan=built in Value to the advertising generation and people who feel that they are excluded from that feel somehow denigrated–they'll have to explain why.
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... I was not challenging your statement, just pointing out it was incorrect ... the definition of artisan does not preclude treating a computer as a tool ... would you consider an artisan using a steel blade less authentic than one using a knapped flint?

:)
 
would you consider an artisan using a steel blade less authentic than one using a knap flint?
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Perhaps that would depend on whether the artisan knapped the flint himself or bought it, already shaped, from a flint factory?

:angel:
 
Sparrow said:
... I was not challenging your statement, just pointing out it was incorrect ... the definition of artisan does not preclude treating a computer as a tool ... would you consider an artisan using a steel blade less authentic than one using a knap flint?

:)
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The definition of artisan requires something to be made by hand, CNC machinery is not by hand.
If we can say computers and computer controlled machines are the same as handcrafted then everything you can think of is hand made which is ludicrous.
 
Photo_Smith said:
That has to be one of the poorest and most ********* analogies I've ever seen on the internet Chris.

What are you saying that Bruce is the least intelligent, lest accomplished lest educated?
Because you disagree with him.
I don't like some people processes because I have a different preference, you're not going to label me as a supremacist if I don't think the way you do things is 'not as good'?
Shheesh Chris You're a great photographer, but if you're that easy in your labelling of people I'll just pop you on ignore–because the kind of sentiment you've shown just makes me feel quite ill.
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Agreed....
 
Sejanus.Aelianus said:
Perhaps that would depend on whether the artisan knapped the flint himself or bought it, already shaped, from a flint factory?

:angel:
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No it would depend on if that artisan used the flint in his actual hand or sat at a computer with a robot doing the interaction with the material.

How the artisans tools are made is irrelevant.
 
Photo_Smith said:
The definition of artisan requires something to be made by hand, CNC machinery is not by hand.
If we can say computers and computer controlled machines are the same as handcrafted then everything you can think of is hand made which is ludicrous.
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So who is it typing on your keyboard at the moment ... you or the computer?
 
Chris,
As for the "no one cares about what process you use", I can refute that quite easily: I care.
 
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