Ralph Gibson: Why would you ditch film in your 76th year?

[ChrisN]

Quite rightly too.

I can't imagine any serious photographer using 35mm. It'll never catch on.

 

[Photo_Smith]

I might remember incorrectly, but wasn't it you that said handmade artisinal film prints inherently have more value than digital ones?

No. I don't think anyone has made that argument. What I stated is artisans make things by hand so something made by a PC or machine isn't handmade.

I think others have interpreted that as they will, they have put a higher value on something handmade or 'artisinal' and argued that machine made objects can be handmade if a hand types on a keyboard.

I have made no judgement about the worth of such products.

 

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

I can't imagine any serious photographer using 35mm. It'll never catch on.

I blame those tradesmen selling their dry plates. If one cannot afford a darkroom cart and a couple of servants to assist in coating one's plates, then one should not ape one's betters.

 

[Keith]

Ralph must have tried a Sigma Merrill camera with a Foveon sensor.
Once you try that, there is no going back.

Damn ... where's the like button! 😀

 

[Keith]

These threads are great ... I don't care what anyone says. Some quite heated discussions with little mod interference and although it may have degenerated into the usual film V digital stoush no one has stormed off.

Yet! 🙂

 

[JPSuisse]

Chris,
As for the "no one cares about what process you use", I can refute that quite easily: I care.

Frank, that's very strong. Proof by contradiction. 🙂

Now, as for Bruce's essay, I see two main points that are ture in the article:

1.) RG used to tell everybody why film was better, etc.
2.) He now admits he's gone digital even if it is less perfect

Would a company, say GM, ever come out and say, "Our new car is less perfect but cheaper and easier to make?" RG kind of set himself up to be flammed on this one.

There are a few other statements in the essay that I don't really agree with. But, an essay is opinion, so let Bruce have his opinion!

 

[Sparrow]

These threads are great ... I don't care what anyone says. Some quite heated discussions with little mod interference and although it may have degenerated into the usual film V digital stoush no one has stormed off.

Yet! 🙂

... agreed, but when did Joe last sleep? and how long before the coffee wares off 😀

 

[sig]

I wonder how long film vs digital will be dicussed. Hopefully for a long time, they are very entertaining.

I have also learnt something new. I would never consider photography (digital, traditional, silver based etc) as 'artisan', but I have now learnt that I was wrong. Thanks epson! http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/jsp/Product.do?sku=C11CA73201

 

[nongfuspring]

No. I don't think anyone has made that argument. What I stated is artisans make things by hand so something made by a PC or machine isn't handmade.

I think others have interpreted that as they will, they have put a higher value on something handmade or 'artisinal' and argued that machine made objects can be handmade if a hand types on a keyboard.

I have made no judgement about the worth of such products.

Yes you did:

I don't think there is any suggestion it is any less valid, hand crafted products will always be sought after due to the value ascribed to them.

And other times also, but I can't be bothered digging them up.

 

[Sparrow]

Yes you did:



And other times also, but I can't be bothered digging them up.

I fear you are wasting your time, he doesn't realise when he has lost the argument

 

[Photo_Smith]

Yes you did:



And other times also, but I can't be bothered digging them up.

You need to dig them up because no where in this quote do I say that one is superior.
Read it again:

I don't think there is any suggestion it is any less valid, hand crafted products will always be sought after due to the value ascribed to them.

That doesn't mean that one is superior, just that SOME people (note not me) will perceive that handmade has higher monetary value.
Or are you saying that some people don't place higher value on handmade goods?

Please post more examples where I say one is superior, because that example falls totally flat on its face.
Again prove or retract.
Just so you understand.
I"M NOT SAYING ONE IS SUPERIOR.
Got it?

 

[Vince Lupo]

Seems like the whole definition of what is photography might be up for discussion, at least in some circles:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/a...-directions-in-photography.html?hpw&rref=arts

 

[Photo_Smith]

I fear you are wasting your time, he doesn't realise when he has lost the argument

I fear you haven't even grasped my position, I'm not making an 'argument' just stating that using computer controlled machines precludes you from being an artisan.
Or are you still claiming one can be a artisan handwriter (calligrapher) by using a word processor and laser printer?
The act of using you hands on a keyboard makes it handmade?

that's it in a nutshell.
I'm not arguing that artisans or their products are better, just made DIRECTLY by human hands.

 

[zauhar]

Somewhere buried in here is the philosophical position explored in that classic '2001: A Space Odyssey' . Tools are precious, even holy, if directly under the control of the human hand, but become something else if elevated outside our control.

SO, working in digital photography you are still in control, but we have moved closer on the continuum to the point where we become irrelevant. Sort of like the astronaut losing a game of chess he had no chance of winning.

"Thank you for a very enjoyable game."

 

[FrankS]

Seems like the whole definition of what is photography might be up for discussion, at least in some circles:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/a...-directions-in-photography.html?hpw&rref=arts

I'm thinking along that line of redefinition. I feel that digital photography deserves its own media category in the arts, in recognition of its distinct process and reliance on computer hardware and software, rather than being lumped in with silver based photography which I think is a different medium.

When hybrid workflow is involved, this would be "mixed media".

 

[gns]

Somewhere buried in here is the philosophical position explored in that classic '2001: A Space Odyssey' . Tools are precious, even holy, if directly under the control of the human hand, but become something else if elevated outside our control.

SO, working in digital photography you are still in control, but we have moved closer on the continuum to the point where we become irrelevant. Sort of like the astronaut losing a game of chess he had no chance of winning.

"Thank you for a very enjoyable game."

I don't think so. With digital processing, we actually have more control of how our picture will look. A computer and ink jet printer put a lot of control in the "Hands" of the photographer as opposed to say, using an analog printing service.

 

[Sparrow]

I fear you haven't even grasped my position, I'm not making an 'argument' just stating that using computer controlled machines precludes you from being an artisan.
Or are you still claiming one can be a artisan handwriter (calligrapher) by using a word processor and laser printer?
The act of using you hands on a keyboard makes it handmade?

that's it in a nutshell.
I'm not arguing that artisans or their products are better, just made DIRECTLY by human hands.

oh yes I have, you think hand crafted is more valued so you can still claim not to find them superior, estoppel I think its called.

You make various claims for hand made products however you ignore the fact that nothing in present day film photography exists that is not the product of scientific research and the output of industrially manufacture ...

... you also seem to feel handmade makes your output sacrosanct and wilfully ignore the fact that it is the mind that is humanities seat of creativity, the hand simply transmits the will to the work it makes no difference weather that hand holds a flint axe or a computer-mouse

 

[Michael Markey]

I'm thinking along that line of redefinition. I feel that digital photography deserves its own media category in the arts, in recognition of its distinct process and reliance on computer hardware and software, rather than being lumped in with silver based photography which I think is a different medium.

When hybrid workflow is involved, this would be "mixed media".

Not a bad suggestion Frank .
In the competition obsessed world of the UK camera clubs they have begun to do that.
The have a seperate category for pictures that have never seen a camera ie shots which have taken the best element or elements from a number of different photographs to make a more "dramatic" image.

 

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

In the competition obsessed world of the UK camera clubs they have begun to do that.

Photographic competitions are something I have never understood. On the other hand, I have heard that some clubs now get all present to vote, instead of having "judges" decide which picture wins.

It's progress, I suppose, of a sort.

 

[gns]

I find the idea of dividing photography up into this kind and that kind silly. I look at a lot of photographs, go to many gallery and museum shows, own a good sized library of photo books, etc.
One thing that I can say is that the division between interesting vs uninteresting work does not fall along lines of what process or materials were used. The fact is, that most work done in the last decade or 2 is some kind of hybrid approach, the digitally processed C print being the most common example.


Enjoy.