Rangefinder Digital with fixed lens?

[Bill Pierce]

Hi all and Bill,

The Sigma DP-1 version however is a fixed lens prime and so are some of the Ricoh's. They are still AF cameras and that's going to be the rub. Maybe not for the average person. But for me and I would think many others a small p&s with a mf prime lens would be nice. The lens should be a proper lens with scale focusing in meter and feet as well as manual aperture ring. .

Total agreement. Working quickly, grab shooting in public spaces, you are often more accurate and quicker scale focusing than autofocusing on moving subjects that are avoiding the area in the viewfinder that shows you where the autofocus will occur. And while twaddling around checking the effect of various focal lengths on your zoom either the subject or the moment disappears.

Most good situations produce good pictures with a variety of focal lengths and framings. It's suprising how universal a lens like a 50 (35 on the M8) can be.

Bill

 

[Peter55]

M8 would be nice for me.

M8 would be nice for me.

Bill,

I would like an M8 since when I re-read my post it's really very much like the camera I have described. But I'm not knowledgeable about it's responsiveness. You have used them so perhaps you would tell me your experiences with the camera.

I'm interested in understanding things about the M8 like shutter lag and even shutter release pressure. Does holding your hand a little high up on the body help with controlling the release?

I already have a first version Summilux 50mm f/1.4 so with the 1.3 sensor crop all I would need is perhaps a 35mm and something even wider.

 

[PetarDima]

Bill,

I would need is perhaps a 35mm and something even wider.

That's right! That is my point of view, too - as I allready said, somthing like
Yashica/Olympus fixed lens ( I mean: fast lens )
🙂

 

[Bill Pierce]

Bill,

I would like an M8 since when I re-read my post it's really very much like the camera I have described. But I'm not knowledgeable about it's responsiveness. You have used them so perhaps you would tell me your experiences with the camera.

I'm interested in understanding things about the M8 like shutter lag and even shutter release pressure.

A long while back, Norm Goldberg measured the time delay between pressing the release on a camera and having the shutter go off. An M3 or M2 came in at about 40 milliseconds. A Nikon F took 90 milliseconds because of the mirror. That's not as great a difference as you might think because the photographer has a delay of about 40ms between thinking he should press the button and pressing the button.

From there on, as you add autofocus, autoexposure in different modes, the time really can go up. A while back there were digital cameras that could take the better part of a second to fire if you just pressed the button.

To keep things short, keep the camera on manual and depress the shutter button just short of triggering the shutter. As far as the M8 specifically... The M8 doesn't seem to have a significant delay greater than the film M's. I don't what it has to do before the shutter goes off when I press the release button, but it's not significant.

And, remember, there are folks doing decent work with cameras with more delay. Your ability to anticipate a moment is probably more important than relatively small differences in shutter lag.

Bill

 

[principe azul]

as you add autofocus, autoexposure in different modes, the time really can go up. A while back there were digital cameras that could take the better part of a second to fire if you just pressed the button.

You've missed a whole lot of other factors, Bill. I once asked a guy in a Sony store about the two-second delay, and he said it was because the camera had to wait for the light from the flash to go to the other side of the room and back. And I hadn't even fired the flash!

He also kept going on about the superior "opticals." I must admit I played along for five minutes or so, just wondering what he'd say next...

🙄

 

[Peter55]

Leica M's

Leica M's

Thanks Bill,

My M5 and Nikon D1H that I use with AIS lenses are good for my style. I just prefere a camera that is as fast as my reactions so that I feel comfortable using it. The Nikon I think may have the edge. I also use a Canon 1Ds Mark II but all the EOS lenses are AF. I use the retouch method while in AF so in a way they are like a MF lens. I just keep my hand on the focusing ring and override the built in AF so this makes them berable for me.

I do a lot of landcape photography so speed is not always important to me. Balance is also important and that's where my M5 feels so good especially on a monopod.

When I'm taking pictures with faces in them I like a fast responsive shutter so I can follow the facial expressions. But realistically I just can't get them all and that's why I do have a large collection of people glancing askew or making off handed expressions. I will ponder what you wrote about anticipating a moment...Ok 5 minets later I have reasoned that what I must be doing is following my subjects and making a capture when I see something I like. Clearly this is not anticapating a moment.

Thanks, I have just learned from you. I appreciate this, it's not to say that I have never anticipated a moment, but rather I will in the future be more aware of the concept and apply it more often.

A vey old school story went something like this. Leonardo da Vinci was walking about in a town when a man jumped out from a second or third story balcony. The arist was able to sketch the man before the ground came up and broke his fall. It has just now after many many years finally occured to me that Leonardo saw the man from his position in the steet and was able to determine that he was about to jump and so therefore he himself pulled out his sketch pad and set to work as it happened.

A long while back, Norm Goldberg measured the time delay between pressing the release on a camera and having the shutter go off. An M3 or M2 came in at about 40 milliseconds. A Nikon F took 90 milliseconds because of the mirror. That's not as great a difference as you might think because the photographer has a delay of about 40ms between thinking he should press the button and pressing the button.

From there on, as you add autofocus, autoexposure in different modes, the time really can go up. A while back there were digital cameras that could take the better part of a second to fire if you just pressed the button.

To keep things short, keep the camera on manual and depress the shutter button just short of triggering the shutter. As far as the M8 specifically... The M8 doesn't seem to have a significant delay greater than the film M's. I don't what it has to do before the shutter goes off when I press the release button, but it's not significant.

And, remember, there are folks doing decent work with cameras with more delay. Your ability to anticipate a moment is probably more important than relatively small differences in shutter lag.

Bill

 

[itf]

But for me and I would think many others a small p&s with a mf prime lens would be nice. The lens should be a proper lens with scale focusing in meter and feet as well as manual aperture ring. If you could change the lens for another with a differenf focal length, then that would allow for a system camera. Then we will be there!

YES! This is what I want. In fact, I'm not bothered if it is even a rangefinder, has a fixed lens, or a smaller than APS sensor (maybe similar size to the mentioned C8080, and it gives a bit more DOF for zoning). Small P&S with manual controls on the lens and body in the form of dials, scale focus only, and a lens in the range of 25 to 35mm. Please! Oh, and a largish buffer. Ricoh GRD is close.... but not enough. Whoever makes it will get my money.

 

[nightfly]

I agree with the above statement. Something that doesn't retract the lens and allows you to preset and go would be perfect but I think the demand is so minuscule that I don't see it ever happening.

 

[gavinlg]

I'm not Bill, but I'll say a very good small digital is the ricoh GR-d... It has a 28mm f2.4 fixed lens, excellent controls for a point and shoot and full manual override. It also has a street hyperfocus style mode where it locks the aperture and focus at a point where it has a large depth of field, and turns off all sounds so the camera is an instant silent tool. The lens is very good and while the small sensor is noisy at high ISO, it has no noise reduction applied at all which means the detail isn't smeared. Add to this that it can shoot in RAW and you got a pretty capable camera.

 

[Jeroen]

Anyone heard something about the Sigma DP-1 yet? It's been half a year now!

 

[AusDLK]

I think someone should mention the Ricoh GR-D in this context.

[Edit] Oops, looks like someone did...

 

[DougK]

Anyone heard something about the Sigma DP-1 yet? It's been half a year now!

According to American Photo, it's won an Editor's Choice award for 2007; click here to read the article. I'm still trying to understand how a camera that hasn't officially hit the market can win an award, but whatever. Sounds like a promising camera, but I guess time will tell.

 

[maggieo]

Here's a crazy thought- there's a zillion olf Canonnett GIII's floating around out there, right? Would it be possible to gut some and repack them with a medium sized digital sensor? There might eveb be room for an LCD on the back.

The 40mm lens is a real gem, and the RF is bright,stable and accurate. With a smaller Sensor, you've have a real HCB machine, with a lens very close to 50mm and nice and fast at f1.4.

I was a Great film design, why not a digiRF? Sort of the Canon equivelent of what Cosina/Epson did with Bessa/RD-1?

 

[Jeroen]

@maggieo: Search Photo.net for 'M2aD'. Huw Finney got wild with a beaten old Leica M2 and a 14 MP monochrome chip. Somehow the project got stranded somewhere, too bad.

 

[Harry Lime]

Anyone heard something about the Sigma DP-1 yet? It's been half a year now![/IMG]

Still waiting....and waiting....and waiting.

At the moment I don't shoot enough digital to justify a $5000 M8, but the DP-1 would be very attractive at under $1000.

I hope they are using the extra time to put a f2 or f2.8 lens on it.
I'll even take a 35mm, instead of the 28mm if that gets me some speed.

 

[GoodPhotos]

Canon needs to issue a G9"w" with a sharp prime 24/2.8mm (35mm equiv.) The camera as is is very fine, but not nearly wide enough for my preferences.

When Nikon puts an convertible DX/FX sensor ala D3 in the likes of a D40x (soon I hope), my 24/2.8 Nikkor will get a lot more use on a daily carry camera!

RFs are fun to use, but I like the old LTM varieties...not much chance that someone will make a IIIf digital!
🙂

 

[Jeroen]

Canon needs to issue a G9"w" with a sharp prime 24/2.8mm (35mm equiv.) The camera as is is very fine, but not nearly wide enough for my preferences.

Nice idea, it would be great competition for the Ricoh GR-D. Also since I'm a 24-guy, too 🙂

 

[Terao]

Canonet is hardly compact by today's standards 🙁

Now a digital Oly Trip (hey, get Annie Liebovitz to do the David Bailey ads) would be cool.

I think we will start to see such things. Digital is at a bit of a plateau at the moment (or rather a false summit) and increasingly people are going back and playing with film. I've four mates who were never big into photography all shooting film for fun at the moment, three of them are using Trips as well.

The megapixel war is over and people are mature enough in their digital shooting to want something different. There's a market for a truly simple point and shoot - i.e. next to zero manual control just like the Trip. For example, we're organising our annual Christmas party, and want cameras for each table of guests - solution is to buy film disposables. Where are the digital disposables? Are they perhaps mobile phone cams?

For me I think we'll see differentiation and focussing on different aspects of photography being used to sell. Ricoh are doing it and so are Sigma (or will be when/if the DP1 arrives). Canon look like they'll be putting large CMOS sensors in a compact range. The new G9 looks like a retro camera. Kids are finding the whole film thing pretty cool as nostalgia kicks in. Interesting times 🙂