rangefinders and fill flash

jgrainger

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I've been refreshing my knowledge of outdoors fill flash lately, in anticipation of some informal opportunities to take some posed portraits while out and about. Most articles look to be geared around digital and seem to involve a great deal of chimping with equipment for professional results - obviously film users still have bracketing, and KR still seems to have the most manual film camera relevant website.

Granted an old rangefinder camera probably wouldn't be the first choice in a studio but I primarily shoot available light and an opportunity is coming up where I'll get to explore a place with an ideal photographic model and it would be nice to do some posed portraits with a bit of outdoor fill flash.

I'm way too lazy/ obsessed with not carrying equipment for the sake of it - I kind of want to try an old 85mm Triotar and a new flash, but also feel that great photographs can be made by capturing things which aren't artificial effects or the product of editing (short of exposure and contrast filters).

I was thinking it would be nice to see some pictures of posed portraits taken with a rangefinder, outside a studio/ formal environment using little more than a couple of lenses and basic lens filters, with some fill flash, to see what can be done.

Regards,

Jonathan
 
Hi,


A "new flash" is a bit vague, so what model is it and so on? Asking as it may have just the perfect settings or it may not. FWIW, I find elderly low powered manual flash the easiest to use here.



Regards, David
 
At least with most of my rangefinders I find film fill flash quit hard. You have to use low ISO even lower than 100, you have to shot at 100/125 unless you have a leaf shutter RF (which I do but it is never loaded when I want to use fill flash.) So this means full sun you have to shoot at f 16 or f 11 depending on latitude and time of day. Therefore, you need a flash that has a guide number high enough to get to f 8 at say 7 to 10 feet.

I'm like you so I don't like to carry a brunch of stuff with me; a giant flash gun being one. I have used my Rolleiflex with a small flash and use the auto setting. That way I can set the ambient light reading with the aperture on the camera at 1.5 or 2 stops above the auto setting. Then it is focus and shoot.

Good luck, but I always find FP shutters and fill flash a squeeze.

Another way of using flash outdoors is to shoot in open shade, but if you do use flash settings and camera aperture close to the same number.
 
As related in another post, high speed flash synchronization is possible with an M-7 and the proper Metz flash unit. It is a bit of a hassle, however, as the flash does not work on either tel or auto mode - it's the old guide number system. Other than the fixed lens rangefinders with leaf shutters, it's nearly impossible.
 
I've used fill flash with both my Nikon S2 and my Leicas (M2, M3 and M6). It's a hassle with a 1/50th-ish shutter speed, but still do-able. And I use ISO 100 film.

I use one of a couple old flashes that I've had for years, which can both be shot in Auto mode. They both can be set AUTO for f2.8 or f5.6. So I meter the subject and if the aperture falls in the f8 - f11 range, I set the flash to f5.6. If I meter the subject and the aperture falls in the f4 - f5.6 range I set the flash to f2.8. This works pretty well.

It's not as good as my modern Nikon and Canon DSLR's with dedicated flash units and flash syncs in the 1/180 - 1/250 range, but it's definitely doable.

Best,
-Tim

PS: I also use a bounce card/disc when shooting in direct sunlight to bounce fill onto a subject's face.
 
In terms of being a bit more specific about the equipment, I've a couple of hotshoe thyristor flashes by Miranda and Cobra, and a couple of Metz, a 402 - with the new flash being a 45.. both Metz are new to me because I didn't have the charger or battery for the 402 until recently (the original head was free). Practically speaking, the Metz 45 is bigger than I'd like, but there's a certain newness factor which greatly offsets carrying it for the time being - making it ideal
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Camera wise, I do have some leaf shuttered cameras but for the sake of being able to use a 85mm lens there's a Canon 7 and Kiev II. The Canon syncs at 1/60 and the Kiev 1/25. These are both pretty slow compared to modern cameras but I got thinking about other people here (with older Leica models, and other FP cameras) who may use flash occasionally.

I've been taking a few outdoor shutter speed, and indoor fill flash pictures with the Kiev this afternoon, and developing to check it's presently viable (being on my to-service list with a date fast approaching)..

The Contax design is one of my favorites, plus I've a couple of the cheaper post war Zeiss lenses such as a coated Triotar.. the Kiev works alright unserviced. The Canon could be called the better camera, but it isn't as easy to love when only used for a hobby.

Taking a lens shade with a front filter thread I hope to be able to get shallow depth of field with the addition of yellow, polarising, and ND filters - probably using Pan F of FP4.

It seems a little more complex a scenario than usual (with potential filter stacking and probably an external viewfinder), but it should be doable. I really wondered and hoped some others here would say it's alright and show some great pictures for inspiration. I don't intend to use flash where it's not a benefit though.

Regards,

Jonathan
 
You need a powerful (big) flash overcome those dark sunglasses you are putting on your lens. I found it to be a zero sum (improvement on the problems of FP) game.
 
Check out what Godox (Flashpoint is rebranded Godox at Adorama and they have pretty good tech support which Godox doesn't) offers. You need to be using a Nikon, Canon, Fuji or Sony camera at this point to get all the benefits. They have all sizes of flash and controller /transmitter devices...all of them are WAY less expensive than "name brand" flash equipment. Fairly easy to use, not real simple to set up but once done, give fantastic results.

You can not only use all the flash off camera but take care of the problem mentioned above by using HSS flash with the right camera/flash combo...
 
Hi,

Fill in isn't difficult the old way.

In a nutshell you meter the background to get that right and use the aperture indicated with the synch speed of the camera. That may be a problem if it's a 20th but there you are...

Now the bit of maths starts; you have the shutter speed and aperture, so divide the aperture into the guide number and that's the distance the flash needs to be from the subject. Experience suggests you experiment as some under exposure for the flash may improve things.

There's a lot of low powered flash guns about that you can use and find ideal, imo.

Regards, David
 
Check out what Godox (Flashpoint is rebranded Godox at Adorama and they have pretty good tech support which Godox doesn't) offers. You need to be using a Nikon, Canon, Fuji or Sony camera at this point to get all the benefits. They have all sizes of flash and controller /transmitter devices...all of them are WAY less expensive than "name brand" flash equipment. Fairly easy to use, not real simple to set up but once done, give fantastic results.

You can not only use all the flash off camera but take care of the problem mentioned above by using HSS flash with the right camera/flash combo...

Yes, it took me 4 hours to set my friend's up for his Sony FF. It has plenty of power, fairly light, tall very tall. Like anything digital you have to use it all the time to not lose your edge. I'm not sure I'd like it on my Oly 35RC.
 
I've experimented a bit using leaf shutters, but my flashes are either manual or thyristor. You would be best off with a flash where you can dial down the power by 2-3 stops, then you have more control over the exposure settings available on the camera. Mine are unable to do that. Regarding the slow shutter sync speeds, they're fast enough for hand-held but you will still need to be careful as the light from the flash may freeze the subject, but unlike indoor photography you have a lot of ambient light so you can still get camera shake.
 
I always wondered: How does Gilden do it? He shoots with an M6, so he's restricted to 1/50s flash sync. Combined with Tri-X, all his shots in daylight should be overexposed even at f/11-16. What does he pull the film to? Must be like ISO50-100. At this point, there is no valid reason to shoot Tri-X.
 
Johnnyrod: my flashes are manual or thyristor / auto too.. I did briefly consider FP flashbulbs with a shutter button type synchronizer but don't really want the hassle, to use all shutter speeds.

Lowering the power of the flash manually is possible to some degree with the Metz, but the auto levels kind of do the same thing within different ranges.

v0sh, it's possible Gilden's using ND filters, to use the flash with a favorite film, keeping acceptable limited available light capability.. or at least, that's my plan.


So far, the present plan is to set the flash ASA level one stop faster (200 with FP4) - thinking this will be the same as setting it to the film speed but closing the lens a stop, done to enable me to set them to the same F-stop on the lens and auto aperture, for ease with daylight fill flash.

I'm hoping doing it this way will also mean the lens and auto aperture setting will stay the same for the purpose of using ND filters - if they're able to be set the same it should be one less confusing thing. I'll probably be using a few stops ND to use a sharp aperture if it's sunny at 1/25th sync speed anyway.

Regards,

Jonathan
 
Gilden, shoots so close to his subjects it changes everything. One, he doesn't need a powerful flash (so maybe ND filter), two, he probably isn't too concerned about ambient light exposure.
 
Gilden, shoots so close to his subjects it changes everything. One, he doesn't need a powerful flash (so maybe ND filter), two, he probably isn't too concerned about ambient light exposure.


No, it doesn't, proximity doesn't change exposure. He shoots between f/11 and f/16, uses a Vivitar Auto Thyristor flash and carries a lightmeter. Never seen him using an ND filter.

So, how does he not overexpose at 1/50 even at f/16 in daylight with a 400 film, if he doesn't pull it at least 2 stops?
 
No, it doesn't, proximity doesn't change exposure. He shoots between f/11 and f/16, uses a Vivitar Auto Thyristor flash and carries a lightmeter. Never seen him using an ND filter.

So, how does he not overexpose at 1/50 even at f/16 in daylight with a 400 film, if he doesn't pull it at least 2 stops?

Proximity doesn't change exposure? We are talking about flash in this thread. The light from your flash falls off as described by the inverse square law.

Positioning the flash close to the subject allows it to overcome the ambient light more easily. Now 1/50s on ISO 400 even at f/16 is over exposed, so the only option is to pull, use ND filters, or put the subject in open shade.
 
Not sure what Vivitar flash is being mentioned but don't they (or some of them) have a reduced power setting or two?


Regards, David
 
No, it doesn't, proximity doesn't change exposure. He shoots between f/11 and f/16, uses a Vivitar Auto Thyristor flash and carries a lightmeter. Never seen him using an ND filter.

So, how does he not overexpose at 1/50 even at f/16 in daylight with a 400 film, if he doesn't pull it at least 2 stops?

But it lets you shoot your flash at f16 (or higher as close a Gilden gets) in sunlight. This is how you calculate aperture if you know the flash guide number and the distance. I doubt he would use an ND filter too, not much to gain there with flash. And my closest Auto flash mode is 3 feet so he probably isn't using auto.

http://dpanswers.com/content/genrc_flash_calc.php

In his case aperture for the flash is with a 400 film and flash of 50 GN; you get a aperture of 50. Probably turning down the power on his flash too.
 
I would experiment with a digital camera until you get the look you’re after. Then, use the film camera.

Suggest you use google and type in, “photography fill flash.”

Another method is to google, “photography fill light using a reflector.”

There are also videos on you tube that could help you.

Using light patterns and shadows is very important with photography. It’s trying to get the illusion of three dimensions while using only two.

Here is one place I found to help you get started:

https://digital-photography-school.com/6-portrait-lighting-patterns-every-photographer-should-know/

Maybe this is nothing new for you?
 
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