fgianni
Trainee Amateur
furcafe said:
You just won a prize for the understatement of the month!
Carolyn-IL
Member
There is really no way I can have access to a used and/or new RD-1, so that would have to be a sight unseen purchase. The final store in my area I inquired re: a used one (they sell tons of camera equipment on consignment) literally laughed for about 2 minutes straight before he said, "what would be the application?" ... that's a quote. So anyway, thinking the internet for the RD-1 will be it ...
I do think Helix in Chicago carries the M8 and I might be able to try it. They were a little stingy on letting me do so with a video camera some time back, but I suppose I could try again with this one.
From what I gather, support is really pretty poor for either camera, so bit of a wash there ... with the exception that paying $5000 for a camera that needs fixing certainly is more vexatious than a $1500 that does! I've just learned with digital, emerging technology there absolutely will be quirks and weird things with all of them ... there sure was with the 20D (but I was lucky not to experience any of them).
Print quailty DOES matter to me, so that is my biggest quandry of the two. Clearly, the M8 is better there, but the question whether it's better enough.
I always come down to the age old issue too, if I get the RD-1, I'll be shooting in a few days ... if I wait until getting the M8 (which will be a few months to a year, depending on the profit(s) of my "real" job), I will miss so many opportunities this summer to take pictures.
Great discussion all ... I've really appreciated it.
I do think Helix in Chicago carries the M8 and I might be able to try it. They were a little stingy on letting me do so with a video camera some time back, but I suppose I could try again with this one.
From what I gather, support is really pretty poor for either camera, so bit of a wash there ... with the exception that paying $5000 for a camera that needs fixing certainly is more vexatious than a $1500 that does! I've just learned with digital, emerging technology there absolutely will be quirks and weird things with all of them ... there sure was with the 20D (but I was lucky not to experience any of them).
Print quailty DOES matter to me, so that is my biggest quandry of the two. Clearly, the M8 is better there, but the question whether it's better enough.
I always come down to the age old issue too, if I get the RD-1, I'll be shooting in a few days ... if I wait until getting the M8 (which will be a few months to a year, depending on the profit(s) of my "real" job), I will miss so many opportunities this summer to take pictures.
Great discussion all ... I've really appreciated it.
artur5
Member
I have a RD-1 ( refurb. unit around 1500$ )
While I agree with the quality of the 6 Mpixels and the ergonomics being fine. I must add that, with low light, you just can't see the analog dials and the ISO setting. The wind-on lever is cool but, being left-sighted I found rather irritating the need to cock the shutter ( hence unframe each time I shoot , if you know what I mean )
The noise level at 1600 ISO seems lower with the RD1, but if you compare the whole picture ( not 100% crops ) to a M8, probably you won't find any difference. Besides the rather strong AA filter of the RD1 implies the use of USM if you want to recover the lost detail, rising the noise floor .
In short, if money is not a problem get an M8 without any doubt. But, I believe also that an updated RD1 -maybe a digital Bessa- with a modern sensor, lets say 10Mp, at $2000 would be a success. Please, Mr. Kobayashi ..
While I agree with the quality of the 6 Mpixels and the ergonomics being fine. I must add that, with low light, you just can't see the analog dials and the ISO setting. The wind-on lever is cool but, being left-sighted I found rather irritating the need to cock the shutter ( hence unframe each time I shoot , if you know what I mean )
The noise level at 1600 ISO seems lower with the RD1, but if you compare the whole picture ( not 100% crops ) to a M8, probably you won't find any difference. Besides the rather strong AA filter of the RD1 implies the use of USM if you want to recover the lost detail, rising the noise floor .
In short, if money is not a problem get an M8 without any doubt. But, I believe also that an updated RD1 -maybe a digital Bessa- with a modern sensor, lets say 10Mp, at $2000 would be a success. Please, Mr. Kobayashi ..
BillBingham2
Registered User
Carolyn,
Not owning either, but being a major lurker I would like to make a suggestion. Invest in a great dry room system (computer, software and perhaps printer with continuous ink feed) and a class or two to learn it. While I am sure the M8 will do some great things, I think the money spent on the backend will pay off just as well, if not better.
I found years ago that getting a great enlarger lens helped make a lot of my prints better. Shoot in RAW and work on tweaking the pictures on the computer. Don’t let the camera do more than capture the picture and send it along to the storage card.
Lots of memory, be it Mac or Windows, more memory helps a lot. I have moved back to Mac, but I run a Windows XP Virtual Machine on it cause some stuff just requires it (e.g. MS Project from hell).
The cost of the M8 just scares me, it’s about 1/3 of the total cost of a car that I am about to buy. On the other hand Epson support is, well, sub optimal from what I hear.
What about a good old M6 and a Nikon Coolscanner? Sorry, just had to do it.
B2 (;->
Not owning either, but being a major lurker I would like to make a suggestion. Invest in a great dry room system (computer, software and perhaps printer with continuous ink feed) and a class or two to learn it. While I am sure the M8 will do some great things, I think the money spent on the backend will pay off just as well, if not better.
I found years ago that getting a great enlarger lens helped make a lot of my prints better. Shoot in RAW and work on tweaking the pictures on the computer. Don’t let the camera do more than capture the picture and send it along to the storage card.
Lots of memory, be it Mac or Windows, more memory helps a lot. I have moved back to Mac, but I run a Windows XP Virtual Machine on it cause some stuff just requires it (e.g. MS Project from hell).
The cost of the M8 just scares me, it’s about 1/3 of the total cost of a car that I am about to buy. On the other hand Epson support is, well, sub optimal from what I hear.
What about a good old M6 and a Nikon Coolscanner? Sorry, just had to do it.
B2 (;->
Carolyn-IL
Member
Hey Bill ~ Yeah, the price scares me too. I actually have a pretty good "dry room" (never heard that term), with a seriously awesome computer, HP Photosmart Pro P9180 and an Epson 4990 Photo scanner. I also have Photoshop CS2, Lightroom, Capture One and Painter X (I'm an artist too). Got all that stuff back when I made a lot more money than I do these days!
I probably SHOULD learn a lot more about scanning though because I'm not that good at it. I'm never that happy with scanned in film shots.
I was a HUGE film hold out, although not RF shooting, but an old Minolta and Canon. That said, what I like about digital is the instantaneous learning. Right away I know what I did wrong, how to fix it and how to get better. By the time I get film back, half the time I don't recall what on earth I did wrong, what my settings were, etc. I'm not a very good "list" chick, or a person who writes stuff down. Granted, you get a lot of "beautiful errors" that way ... But I cannot really see myself going back to film ... never say never, but still. $1200 for an M6 isn't really that cheap either!
Carolyn
I probably SHOULD learn a lot more about scanning though because I'm not that good at it. I'm never that happy with scanned in film shots.
I was a HUGE film hold out, although not RF shooting, but an old Minolta and Canon. That said, what I like about digital is the instantaneous learning. Right away I know what I did wrong, how to fix it and how to get better. By the time I get film back, half the time I don't recall what on earth I did wrong, what my settings were, etc. I'm not a very good "list" chick, or a person who writes stuff down. Granted, you get a lot of "beautiful errors" that way ... But I cannot really see myself going back to film ... never say never, but still. $1200 for an M6 isn't really that cheap either!
Carolyn
pfogle
Well-known
... that's really the only bombproof reason for getting a motor wind (I come from the world of film... onceartur5 said:
) - I'm astounded that, though something like 25% of the population is left-eyed, RF cameras are so unfriendly to those who are! A real lack of designer imagination, IMO.rsl
Russell
artur5 said:
You don't need to see the ISO setting. This is one of the great advantages of the R-D1. Lift the ISO setting ring and turn it all the way clockwise. You're at ISO 200. Now, by feel, lift the ring and move it one click counter-clodkwise. You're at ISO 400. One more click and you're at 800. Another and you're at 1600. As long as the camera's set up properly and you have a reasonably well charged battery you don't need to see the analog dials and you don't need to see the ISO reading. The whole setup is far, far superior to the menu-driven M8 setup.
jjcha
Established
rsl said:
Yeah, what's also great is due to the shutter dial lock on A, you can always know where your shutter speed is without looking at the dial. Just dial it til it locks, then adjust left and right for exposure adjustment based on the clicks.
This along with the ISO setting technique rsl mentions allows you to set exposure without ever looking at the camera or bringing it to your eye.
Best regards,
-Jason
GrahamWelland
Well-known
Carolyn,
I have both the R-D1 and M8, as Dave (Oblio) mentioned in the forum I sold my first R-D1 to him when I first purchased the M8 but subsequently bought a replacement because I missed certain elements of the ergonomics and 'character' of the Epson.
If you're in the position to get the Epson today but would have to wait up to a year to get the M8 then I'd suggest that you pick up the R-D1 and start shooting! The worst case would be that you'll find that digital RF shooting isn't for you.
If I compare the two cameras, the M8 definitely is technically the better camera by a significant margin, primarily the resolution and gorgeous image rendition. The Epson is excellent also but ultimately it's an earlier generation 6mp camera - don't dismiss it because of that though because it also produces great images.
The whole IR thing is overblown. The fact is that the R-D1 has the same problem to a slightly lesser degree. I'm shooting lenses with filters on BOTH cameras.
AS IdeaDog mentioned, the ideal compromise would be the R-D1/M8 hybrid that had the Leica's imaging logic and build but with the controls of the R-D1. I find the R-D1's quiet shutter click far superior to the digital whizz of the M8, ditto the manual wind is 100% ok with me. The R-D1 excels also with the AE & compensation dial although the AE lock button is a pain and unnecessary. Generally the Epson controls feel like a REAL camera vs digital. The M8 controls are fine but I prefer the metal controls of the R-D1 personally. The dials on the top plate are simple, albeit quaint, controls that work and are easy to understand.
As much as I like the R-D1, the M8 is solid as a rock. Image quality is outstanding and I've shot more with my M8 in the last six months than any of my DSLR's. The flaws discussed on most of the boards and blown out of proportion are really not that big of a deal and have been essentially solved. Leica stands behind their product and I hope that it'll be years before there's a M9.
Personally, I'd get the R-D1 today and see how it works out for you. If you decide that you want to migrate to the M8 later then the Epson will still be easily sellable. I really don't think that the value is going to drop appreciably because (1) they're not making any more, (2) they made less R-D1's than Leica has sold in the last 7 months, (3) there's essentially no competition or alternatives other than the M8.
I have both the R-D1 and M8, as Dave (Oblio) mentioned in the forum I sold my first R-D1 to him when I first purchased the M8 but subsequently bought a replacement because I missed certain elements of the ergonomics and 'character' of the Epson.
If you're in the position to get the Epson today but would have to wait up to a year to get the M8 then I'd suggest that you pick up the R-D1 and start shooting! The worst case would be that you'll find that digital RF shooting isn't for you.
If I compare the two cameras, the M8 definitely is technically the better camera by a significant margin, primarily the resolution and gorgeous image rendition. The Epson is excellent also but ultimately it's an earlier generation 6mp camera - don't dismiss it because of that though because it also produces great images.
The whole IR thing is overblown. The fact is that the R-D1 has the same problem to a slightly lesser degree. I'm shooting lenses with filters on BOTH cameras.
AS IdeaDog mentioned, the ideal compromise would be the R-D1/M8 hybrid that had the Leica's imaging logic and build but with the controls of the R-D1. I find the R-D1's quiet shutter click far superior to the digital whizz of the M8, ditto the manual wind is 100% ok with me. The R-D1 excels also with the AE & compensation dial although the AE lock button is a pain and unnecessary. Generally the Epson controls feel like a REAL camera vs digital. The M8 controls are fine but I prefer the metal controls of the R-D1 personally. The dials on the top plate are simple, albeit quaint, controls that work and are easy to understand.
As much as I like the R-D1, the M8 is solid as a rock. Image quality is outstanding and I've shot more with my M8 in the last six months than any of my DSLR's. The flaws discussed on most of the boards and blown out of proportion are really not that big of a deal and have been essentially solved. Leica stands behind their product and I hope that it'll be years before there's a M9.
Personally, I'd get the R-D1 today and see how it works out for you. If you decide that you want to migrate to the M8 later then the Epson will still be easily sellable. I really don't think that the value is going to drop appreciably because (1) they're not making any more, (2) they made less R-D1's than Leica has sold in the last 7 months, (3) there's essentially no competition or alternatives other than the M8.
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Carolyn-IL
Member
Thanks again everyone. Here is the funny thing. Now that I'd like to buy a RD-1, I cannot find one anywhere (stateside anyway)! Pop Flash has one, but it's a bit high ($1725, without shipping). Despite that, I tried to buy it, but their e-commerce isn't taking my debit card (keeps saying shipping and billing addresses need to be the same - and they are reflected as such - but I keep getting an error anyway).
So I'll be patient and see if one comes along. Also, I noticed there is a flux of used M8s right around $4000 ... those sure are coming done in price.
Kind regards,
Carolyn
So I'll be patient and see if one comes along. Also, I noticed there is a flux of used M8s right around $4000 ... those sure are coming done in price.
Kind regards,
Carolyn
GrahamWelland
Well-known
Carolyn,
Popflash is a real store with real people that'll talk on the phone (unlike most web commerce sites). Give Tony Rose a call and I'm sure you'll get your camera ok.
As regards the eCommerce validation - some are very picky and you need to have your address AND phone number matching otherwise they'll barf. Sometimes it's also worth giving your bank a call too just in case their default fraud detection is blocking your internet purchases with a debit card. This is quite common.
Btw: where are you seeing $4k M8's?
Graham
Popflash is a real store with real people that'll talk on the phone (unlike most web commerce sites). Give Tony Rose a call and I'm sure you'll get your camera ok.
As regards the eCommerce validation - some are very picky and you need to have your address AND phone number matching otherwise they'll barf. Sometimes it's also worth giving your bank a call too just in case their default fraud detection is blocking your internet purchases with a debit card. This is quite common.
Btw: where are you seeing $4k M8's?
Graham
Carolyn-IL
Member
Hey Graham ~ I will try that Monday, see if it bears fruit. I'm a big believer in "if it was meant to be" ... it will happen.
I saw two $4000 (mildly used though & one was technically $3995) M8s here actually, in the Classifieds. I believe one is already gone/traded (or as I checked last evening), but there was a second one.
Carolyn
I saw two $4000 (mildly used though & one was technically $3995) M8s here actually, in the Classifieds. I believe one is already gone/traded (or as I checked last evening), but there was a second one.
Carolyn
GrahamWelland
Well-known
As it happens there's also a nice chrome M8 a $4000 on the Leica Users Forum classifieds too. This is great news as I've been looking for a 2nd M8 for a while (my Epson fills part of this purpose) and $4k is a much kinder price point.
Good luck with whichever you decide to buy. Both are excellent.
Good luck with whichever you decide to buy. Both are excellent.
Ben Z
Veteran
I've seen a few used M8's for sale at various places in the $4000 range. These were dealers not private parties, and came with 2-week MBG and 60-90 day warranties, since Leica's warranty isn't transferable to a second owner according to the folks in NJ. Two of these M8's were early serial #'s and though they had the latest firmware it couldn't be determined to my satisfaction that they'd had the factory recall service. They also didn't come with the 2 free IR filters (or the ones I would need), so that added effectively $200+ to the cost. YMMV but I myself wouldn't consider taking on an unwarrantied M8 for anything less than $1500 below the cost of a new one (or $1300 if it came with the exact filters I need). I can imagine the cost of repairing one that goes DOA would be extremely expensive.
gdi
Veteran
Place an ad here Carolyn - "WTB R-D1 " and you'll find one and should get it for less than $1600. There is one here for almost $1800 with the RF outta whack -I don't think they'll get that. I sold the one I discussed with you (mint with perfect alignment) for only $1500.
Also, I agree with Ben - buying a camera like the M8 which has know issues without a warranty without a significant discount may end up being costly.
Also, I agree with Ben - buying a camera like the M8 which has know issues without a warranty without a significant discount may end up being costly.
Carolyn-IL
Member
Gary ~ I did post a message and I did get one reply last night. So we will see how that goes. I agree, $1770 is too high as Pop Flash has one with no known issues for $1725 ...
I suppose folks start high knowing the reality would be a bit less. Good thoughts on the M8. I agree there. I just think too I'm not ready to make that extensive of an investment in it. Maybe after its successor comes out and I have more $$, I can consider it.
I suppose folks start high knowing the reality would be a bit less. Good thoughts on the M8. I agree there. I just think too I'm not ready to make that extensive of an investment in it. Maybe after its successor comes out and I have more $$, I can consider it.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
I have both and because the M8 is just a couple of months old, I am using it almost exclusively. The RF baselength is longer, which means that I can use lenses that were always iffy on the R-D1. 50/1, 75/2, 90/2.8 and so on. There is at least one favorite lens that I cannot use at normal focal lengths on the M8 and that is the 50 DR Summicron. M8 is a slightly smaller crop-factor (1.3) for wide-angles than the R-D1 (1.5), but wides work fine on both. At low ISOs the M8's files are gorgeous . . . I will say that you can see the difference between its 10 MP and the R-D1's 6MP, but that wouldn't stop me from using the R-D1, which, as noted above, can produce great pictures. I would say that the look of the R-D1 at low ISO's is reminiscent of 35mm quality where the M8 is closer to 6x4.5 or 6x6 (count those eyebrows/eye-lashes and weep). Durability, longevity . . . who knows? Epson has already put the R-D1 out to pasture and I wonder what good my MAC Camera three year extended warranty will do if something proprietary breaks or gets fried. With the M8 Leica has jettisoned their passport warranty, opting for one year parts and labor in the US. And there is cost. Yikes, buying the M8 was like passing a walnut through a narrow. . . well, never mind. If the M8 holds up another six months, I'll probably sell the R-D1 so that I don't have to keep wondering where I am going to come up with the cash to pay down those credit cards . . .
Good luck with your choice.
Ben Marks
Good luck with your choice.
Ben Marks
tomasis
Well-known
to put simply, if you shoot some hundreds every day, so take M8 it is no brainer regarding cost and quality. Myself I bought Rd1 because I did know that I'm gonna shot at amateur level and I have full time boring job at the side also so it is leisure time left for me but me as owner of Nikon D70, I was very impressed much by perfomance of rd1. maybe due to leica lenses, who knows whatever you choose, you'll end upp as happy for sure
whatever you choose, you'll end upp as happy for sure 
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Carolyn-IL said:
Hi Carolyn,
Whoops, rewind, if you're switching to digital fullly, you don't have any need for the Epson 4990 anymore then
If you are thinking of letting it go, contact me, ok?
tomasis
Well-known
Idea dog, it's interesting that you find rd1 files which requires less processing time. It is quite opposite for me especially with ACR4.1. White balance is not right selected as automatically, values are not right. To set sharpness is a headache for me when I want get maximum sharpness out the leica lens without worrying about artifacts. Though Acr does nice job reducing high iso grain of photos. Anyway if I buy a M8, I still hold r-d1 until its death because it is very special camera after all
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