RD2, when ???

[Sean Reid]

The other group who use FF sensor cameras (myself included) are those of us who do work that sometimes requires very wide angle lenses. Architectural interiors, in my case, are what I need them for. It's not always just a matter of buying new lenses, sometimes the lenses that would be needed don't exist. Case in point: the Leica DMR I'm now testing which performs beautifully but which can only work as wide as a 21mm FOV (using a $7000 15/2.8).

Cheers,

Sean

 

[JohnL]

Also, bigger sensors have bigger pixels, for any given pixel count. At any given level of technology, that means better high-ISO / low light performance.

 

[nrb]

I agree.
Smaller than full frame sensors cripple our existing lenses and are simply not up to the task.
Also, I'm sure, that major camera makers are conscious of the effects of their present day small frame sensors policy, know only too well that they'll have to adopt full frame shortly, but persist in doing so in the hope that they'll be able to profit doubly by selling professionals and other photographers both systems in sequence...

 

[kaiyen]

Right, because Nikon is going to come out with a full frame sensor any second just to force everyone to buy a D2x and a D3XFF whatever.

I agree that the need to buy new, wider lenses to get the same FOV is a pain. But I really don't see FF sensor-based cameras coming down in price that soon. If an M7 costs that much right now, throw an FF sensor in there and you got the money, then go for it.

allan

 

[sevres_babylone]

For me, a small camera is more important than a big pixel. If there were to be a choice to be made for the R-D2, I would prefer to see what could be done with the Nikon D200 chip in the existing body size, rather than go FF in a bigger, heavier body.

 

[losta]

Problem is, of course, do you "spring" the $1700 for a D200 and then face the possibility of a full frame Dxxx in a year or two wiping out your investment?

You can't really look at digital cameras like investments, technology moves on you can't expect manufacturers to stop making cameras just because you buy one. You need to use it to get the value out of it before you move onto the next one, they don't really become obsolete, they just get outclassed by the newer technologies.

I have had digital cameras for over 10 years, probably over 30 different cameras. I buy them, use them, when a new one comes out I buy that and sell my older one on ebay or through fredmiranda.com usually only losing 25%-45% of what I paid.

I am actually thinking of ordering an R-D1 today. Knowing full well that when Epson announces an R-D2 and Leica releases the digital M it will lose most of it's value. But I want to get the best use of my lenses now. Epson has a special coupon code through tomorrow (December 22nd) and I could get it for almost $500 less than if I walk into B&H. I'm a bit weiry of buying one used due to problems I read about here. Regardless, I still want one as it the only thing right now that meets my needs.

 

[Jim Watts]

I'm glad to see that in the U.K. at least the price of the R-D1 is holding up well in comparison to other digital cameras. I paid 1998 GBP for mine a little over a year ago and yesterday saw a secondhand (mint) one in 'Aperture' (a well respected London dealer) for 1650 GBP. This is probably because the R-D1 is still unique and Losta is probably correct in thinking that the price will drop if an R-D2 or Leica digital appears.

As a comparison my Canon 20D purchased only a month before the R-D1 now retails new for about 30% less than I paid.

Of course both cameras are as fit for the purpose intended (taking pictures) as they were originally and it's fulfilling this investment aim thats more important to me than any price drops. In the last year I have much reduced my film usage so Have saved over 1000 GBP on film costs, so this can be offset against any price change.

 

[MP Guy]

Any new talk of an RD2? I don't know if I can wait for the DM. I need something now 🙂

 

[loretdem]

Any new talk of an RD2? I don't know if I can wait for the DM. I need something now 🙂

Doubtful in the extreme, but you never know. I say be patient for the DM and enjoy shooting film. Don't forget that film, particularly color, has never been better, while digital is only now beginning to come into its own. Looking at your "kit" you seem to have the best of both worlds well covered. Enjoy.
-Carlos

 

[hth]

I do not care much about a digital M, it will be too expensive for my taste for many years anyway. This FF/APS sensor debate is sort of uninteresting to me at the current price level. I will not buy any digital RF unless they start by cutting the price in half, at least.

What I cannot understand is why not anyone makes a small camera with optical RF, fixed lens step zoom and traditional controls. The digilux-2 was sort of a step in that direction, but useless to me due to the viewfinder.

Sometimes I wake up, feel an urge for a good digtial camera, look around, find nothing on the market and go back to film. After such session I feel quite happy with film. I usually end up using a battery-less Leica with lots of pleasure after such events - ha! 🙂

/Håkan

 

[jlw]

What I cannot understand is why not anyone makes a small camera with optical RF, fixed lens step zoom and traditional controls.

Because it would be very expensive. An optical RF is a costly component, and coupling it to a zoom lens requires elaborate camming. The only price advantage of such a camera compared to an interchangeable-lens model (with equivalent lens) would be the cost of the mount flanges, which would be only a small percentage of the total cost.

This means the camera would be perceived by consumers as a "lower class" product because the lens is fixed, but it would have to sell for almost as high a price as the interchangeable-lens equivalent. Few people would see this as a good value, so sales would be low.

 

[nottageek]

I'm glad to see that in the U.K. at least the price of the R-D1 is holding up well in comparison to other digital cameras. I paid 1998 GBP for mine a little over a year ago and yesterday saw a secondhand (mint) one in 'Aperture' (a well respected London dealer) for 1650 GBP. .

Jim, this week I checked out 5 dealers in Hong Kong and was offered at prices ranging from $2200 to $2600 (with 4 under $2300). Interesting that all had serial numbers between 14xx and 16xx.

I bought one with full Epson warranty (confirmed with Epson), 2x 1GB x150 speed Ridata cards, extra battery and a cheap case for just under $2400.

I had posted a WTB here and all offers were over $2500 (and I'd have been paying shipping also) with no warranty.

Have to say that, so far, I'm blown away by this camera. My main user camera is a Bessa R3A, so this feels very familiar to me. I've been trying out lens after lens (the "instant" lens testing is an absolute joy). Obviously the "crop" is a factor (no pun intended) as my standard kit is a 35 and a 50. The 35 (a Canon 1.8 with adapter) gets me the 50(ish) and I'm now eagerly awaiting a 15 and a 28 from Mr Gandy at Cameraquest. However, I'm finding that my 50 Summilux (at 75 equiv) has become an excellent portrait lens.

Now annoyed that I waited so long. As much money as I've "saved", I've missed a lot of fun with this instant classic....

 

[Jim Watts]

Hi nottageek,

I posted in a much earlier thread that a friend of mine brought an R-D1 while in Hong Kong (in about May I think) for 972 GBP which is about US $1730 at todays exchange rate and I remember others posting Hong Kong prices at the time of about $2000 - $2400, so even in Hong Kong prices have held or gone up slightly.

My friend of course had no U.K. valid warranty, but took the chance. He has been lucky an had no problems as far as I know. I think the better idea was RML's who got his Hong Kong dealer to check his R-D1 for the known problems before shipping. I think he paid a little over $2,000. When I brought mine in December 2004 the camera was still an unknown quantity and my luck in the past when buying from abroad without a U.K. warranty has been bad. What I have saved over the U.K. price has been more than lost in repair costs. So I opted to pay the U.K. price, although I did get a very good part exchange deal to offset it. I like you would have been annoyed if I had waited, especially as there has not really been that much of usual "Digital Price Drop" so far, as I am really enjoying this camera. Glad you managed to get one at an acceptable price for you and that you are also enjoying yours as well.

Jim

 

[RML]

Yes, I got mine from Dr Yao, who had my camera inspected. At that time I was hearing only trouble stories but mine was, and still is, a fine example. Yes, the framelines are a bit wonky (especially pronouncedly so when holding it vertical) but that's really all trouble I've yet experienced. Including shipping and 400 euro import duty here in Holland, I still paid a "mere"2500 euros. 500 euros below shop price.

 

[nrb]

After much has been said about this subject I must conclude that a Bessa R and 2 or 3 lenses, plus a good scanner and some film is a nice alternative to a full-frame RD2.
Also cheaper especially when you already own one, and perhaps more fun too.
🙄

 

[krimple]

Anyone else have a user R-D1 by now?

Anyone else have a user R-D1 by now?

I dunno about an R-D2. I think the biggest single issue for me is the amount of noise in the green? channel at ISO 1600. I get rid of it by just extracting one or two channels via the channel mixer for an almost noiseless image, but it looks a bit wierd in some shots.

I still love the R-D1. I can usually focus the lenses I have, even in low light, and the camera is absolutely unobtrusive. No one ever looks at me funny when I do grab shots with the R-D1, but they do look at me with my EOS 5D. You get in, you get out. You got the shot.

I've had the R-D1 for about 13 months now and I have to say that I still love the kit. I go away from it from time to time to shoot DSLR type stuff (landscapes, macros, tele portraits, studio work) but for taking downtown for a few quick snaps, it can't be beat.

My problem will be if the R-D2 is full frame, low noise and solves the vignetting thing at 15mm, that I'll probably get $1,000 or less for my R-D1 as it already would be considered a 'user' camera, LOL--mostly some paint coming off the brass, and a few small nicks here and there.

I wonder if anyone successfully got theirs 'CLA-ed' from Epson. That's my main fear--that it will break and no one will be able to fix it.

If anything, the R-D1 has pushed my thinking a bit more toward Leica. I have a Leica CL that I'm about to toss and get a nice user M6 for a better film shooting experience. That CL's finder is just too small.


Ken

 

[Nemo]

The R-D1 would buy an irresistible buy at $1.500.
The only real problem of that camera was the price.
It would be great if Epson is able to offer an updated model at $2.000 or less. That is the only way to get new customers to the rangefinder way of life. Today, you can buy a gorgeous Nikon D200 for 1700€. Many people would look at a different, not DSRL, solution if it is provided at acceptable prices.
R.

 

[Jim Watts]

I know it could be regarded as a bit of a 'Chicken & Egg' situation. Lower the price, sell more units, still make a profit. But the scale here is totally different. Nikon have recently announced that they are scaling up production of the D200 to 40,000 cameras a month to meet demand. Epson have not yet sold 5,000 of the projected 10,000 cameras in a little over a year.

No matter how much I love this camera and the rangefinder concept in general I unfortunately have to accept, that no matter how well promoted, there would never be the demand to give an economy of scale and production methods that would allow a similar price to the Nikon.

 

[RML]

Nikon did a good job to come out with two very limited editions of rangefinders, the S3 2000 (and black paint 2002) and the SP 2005. The S3 2000/2002 was in two runs of 2000 units each; the SP 2005 was a run of 2500. Even these haven't all completely sold out IIRC.

The market for rangefinders is small and the number of offerings is quite large when we consider Leica, ZI, Voigtlander, Nikon, Rollei and Epson all have at least 1 rf camera on offer. Not to mention all those pre-owned cameras available.

 

[aizan]

i bet the market for a dmd is bigger than that for a digital rangefinder.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/DMD.shtml