Ready for a compact RF

[Matus]

Introduction:

I feel that my time to get a classical compact RF has come. Among compact cameras I have used over past 2 years an Olympus XA (sold - just bit too hard to use and not the performance I hoped for, nicely small though) and a P&S Fuji Silvi Zoom f2.8 (still have - has a usefull 25-50 zoom for travel - accompanies the Mamiya 6 very well ).

I seem to be the kind of guy ho just like to shoot MF - I had a very positive relationship with a Rolleiflex T which I sold only to fund the Mamiya 6 I have now (which I like very much too).

Now - sometimes you go out for a trip where the MF camera is either too bulky, slow to use or the lens speed is not enough. I will actually go to Spain (from Germany) for a friends wedding in Valencia in about 6 weeks and would like to have some nice camera along.

I have been considering compact AF cameras like Contax T3, Ricoh GR1, Minolta TC-1 and even the Hexar AF. All these guys promise a very good image quality in a small package (apart from the Hexar), but actually oly the Hexar AF has a fast lens.

But as I did not have too luck getting a image quality I hoped (wished?) for with 35 mm cameras yet (that Includes R3A with Jupiter J3 which indeed can take some nice moody shots) I though I could give a shot to one of the classical 35 fixed lens RF cameras which can be had for a reasonable money and at the same time many are highly regarded for their performance.

Getting to the point

I am aware of some classical 35mm fixed lens RFs - mainly thanks to the nice articles by Stephen (thank you a lot !), but I guess there are more that may be interesting to try out.

So I am after following features:
+ good quality fast lens, 35 or 40 mm would be optimum for focal length
- the lens should be decently sharp wide open and sharp at f/2.8 (sharp enough for A4 prints). I know this is subjective, so let's say I look for a good one in this department
+ true RF (no scale focusing)
+ usable AE
+ AE lock
+ some sort of selected shutter speed in viewfinder while in AE (at least rough, but more than OK / Not OK)
+ either uses finable batteries or can be in some reasonable way upgraded.
+ close focus a bit under 1 m would be nice
+ repairable (should I really like the camera, I want to be able to keep it alive)

Not so relevant:
- flash abilities
- size (well, all the these are compact enough and anyhow not small enough for a pocket)
- parallax corrected viewfinder would be nice but not a show stopper it not there.
- full black would be nice

So far the following ones look interesting to me:
Canonet QL17, Konica S3, Olympus RD,

I would appreciate your suggestions and advice 🙂

 

[chris00nj]

I've always like the Canonet QL17. The 40 f/1.7 lens is very fast and versatile.

The main issues is the battery. I have two, both which the battery contact is corroded, because the previous owner left the battery in. If not corroded, the Wein Cell is okay replacement, but it is a bit of a pain. I suspect my complaint is common to other era RFs.

 

[ZeissFan]

There is the Rollei XF 35. Nice lens. Has the programmed exposure info in the viewfinder. Dodgy Singaporean construction.

The Konica C35 Automatic is a very good camera. It has the programmed exposure info in the viewfinder and better construction than the Rollei.

The Olympus 35 RC has exposure info in the viewfinder (I think). It's been so long since I picked it up that I don't remember.

If you don't mind carrying an external meter, there are a bunch of excellent folding cameras: Kodak Retina, Balda, Welti, Zeiss Ikon, Voigtlander Vito III, etc.

 

[Greyscale]

The Minolta Hi-Matic 7s, 7sII, 9 and 11 would also fit most of your criteria. The 9 and 11 both seem to fly under the radar a bit at auction, and are often very good values.

The QL17 is a nice camera as long as it is working, but is not as "user friendly" for minor repairs as most of the others mentioned, so I would recommend buying one that has had a recent CLA if you decide to go that route.

Most of these display aperture info in the viewfinder, I'm not certain if any of them display shutter speed.

I love the C35 Automatic, but it is totally automatic, really not many options for manual control. A wonderful picture-taker, though.

 

[Matus]

Thank you for your replies so far.

Just let me quickly rectify one mistake - when I said shutter in the viewfinder I meant actually aperture as most (is not all) of these cameras are shutter priority not aperture priority.

Also - no folders as they do not come with wider lenses. Also built in working meter is important for me.

 

[julio1fer]

I'd consider the Olympus 35 SP (one of the best lenses you can find in a fixed-lens RF, or elsewhere for that matter).

 

[olympusVFRF]

which camera

which camera

Hi,
for easy repair in future, size and lens,i'll get a 35 RD.
The 35 RC is so good and so small, but it is only f2.8, but in normal situations that's no problem, and have a good viewfinder that shows both shutter and aperture selected, really nice.
I have the SP, the RD, the RC, Yashica 35 CC ...and also the QL17GIII and i can say that the one that impress me more was the 35 RC, but maybe just because i won't expecting such a good camera.

Of course the 35 SP lens is very good, and have spot metering,but it is a little bit bigger than the others...
i really like the look of the black QL17GIII and its really good viewfinder... yashica 35 CC with an 35mm f1.8 lens, the only fixed 35mm fast lens with aperture priority up to 30 sec, but don't show the speed in the viewfinder...

Anyway, any of these i'm shure you will be glad. Any one of these are rangefinders.
Tosee most of these cameras go to:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/olympusrf

Cheers,
Denny

 

[Matus]

Ok, here is my update:

I have looked into more detail and browsed around and realized that not all compact fixed lens RF cameras are ... well .. compact 🙂

I actually quite like the Lynx 14, but it is twice the weight of Konica S3 and the lens being a bit longer then the rest is (to me) more a portrait lens than general travel lens (I lean towards 35 mm lenses). Truth to be told - I did not come across too many nice samples from this camera (in general most scans from this type of cameras I am looking at that can be found on flickr are, well, poor).

As Interesting as the Yashica Lynx 14 and GSN look they are quite big and heavy (yes, I do realized that GSN has aperture priority) so I am right now looking mainly into:
- Konica S3
- Minolta Hi Matic 7sII
- Olympus RD
- Canonet G-III QL17 (a bit heavier that the 3 above)

Now - price aside - what would be your pick out of these cameras and if you would go for a different one - why?

 

[Brian Legge]

If those 4, I haven't used the S3. I've heard great things about it but can't justify spending that much on a camera that doesn't offer full manual control.

The Canonet 17 GIII feels the most solid over all. Might be the size and mass. The camera is slightly larger but feels good to use. Biggest finder of the three.

The 7sII is smaller and has controls which are just as accessible. Feels good in the hand but is harder to find ones in good condition. As someone who values easy manual control, the aperture changing stick in the bottom of the camera is brilliant. The finder is the smallest/feels slightly less sharp.

The 35RD is smaller than the Canonet, has a good finder, and a very solid lens - possibly my favorite of the three. The aperture ring is flush against the body though, making it harder to change than either of the other cameras. If don't find yourself changing it all the time, this might not be a big deal for you.

If possible, try to get one of the cameras in your hands before making a decision. All three are very solid and you'd probably be happy with any of them. If I could pick only one, it would probably be a 7sII for how it feels in my hands. That probably changes person to person though. An advantage of the 35RD is the potential to get it serviced if needed by Zuiko.com - I don't know I'd anyone specializes in the others. Working Canonet 17s are probably the simplest to find by a large margin.

Edit: I love the Lynx 14, but it is about the size of an SLR. 🙂 If you only need auto exposure, another option is the 35DC. The 35RC is slower but is also a great camera. Large and polished enough to still feel like a traditional camera, good finder, and easy to access controls. I particularly like it for shooting from the hip as you can glance down and change the aperture/shutter speed easily.

 

[Doug]

I'd agree with Brian about the Olympus. I've had a 35RC since 1972, and found it great for a carry-anywhere and travel camera, compact with pretty high quality. But, 10 years later I saw that the new Minolta CLE wasn't much larger... an entry into the M-mount world... 🙂

 

[Matus]

Thanks Brian & Dough.

I do realize that the compact fixed lens RF are not that much smaller that Minolta CLE which is not that much smaller than Leica or R2A, but these small RFs are just much cheaper and mostly also quieter than the more flexible rangefinders.

Let me mention here that I already did have a Bessa R3A and used it with J-3 but eventually sold it as I somehow did not enjoy that shutter sound/feel. I also realized too late and 35/40 lenses would be the choice if I should have only one lens along. I know I could have swapped the R3A for R2A but I just somehow did not feel like that. I even got in the mood of old meter-less Leicas (M2, M4) :angel:

Anyhow, I would give these old nice cameras a try first as a part of my therapy 😉


Actually - what about the Revue 400 SE ? I read a bit about it - it should be similar to Konica S3 and Minolta Hi-Matic 7sII, but how good it really is? It can be had for very little here in Germany.

And one more question - any tips on good CLA in DE or EU? I guess these old gentlemen may need it.

 

[btgc]

Revue 400SE is about same rig as Yashica Eletro 35 - just it has Tv mode instead of Yashica's Av. If you can live with this 400Se could be fine carry-around camera.

 

[Mablo]

I had the Olympus RD. It has a great lens but I didn't particularly like the ergonomics of the camera. I think you should add Yashica Electro GX in your list of potential candidates. It's in my view the ultimate compact RF.

 

[Brian Levy]

I know you have specific wants in what the camera has for features but, I'd suggest that you may want to re-explore the list. For instance AF is not a real need with the RF (or any camera), just use the hyperfocal distance. AE, set your aperture and then siimply adjust the speed. Built in meter, learning the Sunny 16 system is very easy and should be learned as a meter only can give a suggested settings. Then you need to adjust from there and that usually requires some basic understanding of the rule. Or, a hand held meter or meters that can include an averaging or spot depending you what you are shooting and most have an incident readinag ability.

A faster lens is good for some things but most lenses are at their best a couple of steps down so unless shooting in quite low light the real advantage of using a 2.0 or 3.5 is not that great. With todays films the faster lenses are less necessary. Back years ago when shooting ASA 10, 20, 50, 100 was the norm, yes but try to even find those speeds today; quite difficult. Available light shoooting with today's films is so much easier with non-low light systems.

With very little practice you can use a basic camera with as much ease and speed as the automated battery dependent models. I have found that with my all manual non-coupled cameras I tend to get beyond the settings fast and spend more time on the composition.

If you consider my proposition there is opened up a large number of very great cameras that cam produce exceptional results and are more involving expereince. Also, some of the folders such as the Voigtlander Contina II while not having small footprints opened are pocket sized when closed up. The glass on these older cameras depending on the lens design can be 1st rate and produce results that leave newer lenses wanting.

I used a Contina II (524/24) and a Vito B for a number of years and the results were so good, I never had an itching to move to something else. Yes, I finally did move to a Leica but it was not because I was looking but, I acquired a friend's system as he was having financial difficulty and asked for some help. I did not dispose of either the Contina nor the Vito B and continued to use them on and off until a couple of years ago when the shutters finally exhibited the usual telltale signs of needing a cleaning. Only a few days ago I pulled them off the shelf to get the seriving done; not an expensive proposition and I expect to use them for a lot of years. The Vito has no range finder and I never found a need to use the accessory rangefinder that came with it. The Contina has a non-coupled rangefinder that I seldom used but when I did was every bit as good as a coupled finder but as it does not use the viewfinder, the viewfinder is less cluttered and brighter.

 

[Naumoski]

After many 'wars' on this topic, doesn't the selection came down to Canon QL-17III or Minolta 7sII (or Yashica GSN) ? 🙂

Also there are other options like you've mentioned on the first post, but I guess everyone in the end falls down to these two cameras for their overall best characteristics.

If this might be helpful to you, here is my early review for my Minolta 7sII: http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88876&highlight=minolta+7sII

Also, I would suggest, maybe it would be better to look for a really pocket-able compact camera, that you can have with you everywhere, like Olympus XA models or smaller which have impressive quality, or maybe Rollei 35 which are also small and don't use battery, both are great for everyday/street photos.

 

[Matus]

- Naumoski -
I actually did see your review already - I am a diligent one 😛
You are quite correct, but the black S3 looks so nice too.

- Brian -
I am actually not looking for an AF camera. Truth to be told - if the Hexar AF could be had for a little less I would probably get it. I was (am) also tempted by the Contax G2. Body does cost a bit, but the lenses are really cheap and great (OK, the 21 is not cheap but is super). But the light meter, when working, is nice to have.

I will probably get that camera which I will first find in a good condition for a reasonable price (I just feel so smart today 😀 ). I have already decided that if this solution works for me the camera will get some nice new skin form cameraleather.com

 

[Naumoski]

Matus,

Minolta 7sII (and other similar) are nice cameras, the meter in my camera is exelent, bokeh also, is very quiet and all.
I will take to a small trip to Belgrade and Novi Sad next weekend for some street photos and leave the SLR at home.
But wouldn't be better if my compact RF was pocketable, of course it'd be better.

 

[oktyone]

This is a rangefinder camera that hardly ever gets mentioned, even though it meets most of your criteria.. check alfred klomp's review

Agfa Optima 1535

Also if cheapness isn't an issue, and you're willing to spend a bit more than 200$, then don't rule out the "Contax T"

 

[FrankS]

From my experience, the Olympus SP is the best fixed lens manual focus RF camera, but it is not truly compact. (one available here: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/pho...duct/24789/cat/3/limit/recent/date/1257127475

 

[Matus]

Now that Agfa looks interesting. But that Contax T .. hmm ... I was thinking about the Contax T3 but those are a bit more pricey. The T has indeed something to it. How much do go these for? How about the repairs? I seem to recall that it can be difficult ...

FrankS, thanks for the heads-up. The Oly SP is an interesting camera with very good lens. Will give it a thought (although I would prefer to buy in EU).