brusby
Well-known
I've generally had good luck buying things on Ebay, but only recently started trying to pick up a few basic, older Leica lenses to be used on a new M9.
Within the past few months I bought a black 50mm summicron and a version 2 50mm summilux. Both were represented as being in great working condition. Unfortunately, focus was way off on both. They both looked great and showed no signs of abuse, but the real clue was infinity focus was pretty fuzzy.
I'd read all the horror stories about new M9s having the sensor misplaced and of course I suspect that with mine. But, a chrome 50mm summilux I had was spot on, and so was a 90 tele elmarit, 90 summilux and a couple of wide angle lenses. So, what was the culprit?
I finally decided to send both lenses to Don at DAG. The first diagnosis came about a month ago for the 50 cron -- misplaced internal element(s). Price to fix was reasonable and the lens came back in great shape.
The 50 lux was disgnosed shortly after -- "focus was off due to loose internal lens elements". I got it back today. Focus perfect.
So, it seems the M9 is fine. Can't believe anyone would intentionally misrepresent lenses like that. Well, maybe I can . . . unfortunately.
So, caveat emptor.
Within the past few months I bought a black 50mm summicron and a version 2 50mm summilux. Both were represented as being in great working condition. Unfortunately, focus was way off on both. They both looked great and showed no signs of abuse, but the real clue was infinity focus was pretty fuzzy.
I'd read all the horror stories about new M9s having the sensor misplaced and of course I suspect that with mine. But, a chrome 50mm summilux I had was spot on, and so was a 90 tele elmarit, 90 summilux and a couple of wide angle lenses. So, what was the culprit?
I finally decided to send both lenses to Don at DAG. The first diagnosis came about a month ago for the 50 cron -- misplaced internal element(s). Price to fix was reasonable and the lens came back in great shape.
The 50 lux was disgnosed shortly after -- "focus was off due to loose internal lens elements". I got it back today. Focus perfect.
So, it seems the M9 is fine. Can't believe anyone would intentionally misrepresent lenses like that. Well, maybe I can . . . unfortunately.
So, caveat emptor.
bob338
Well-known
Ebay is really starting to suck. The sellers are getting more desperate and ruthless. In the last few weeks I have bought 2 Lego Brickmaster books for my son, and a car for my wife.
The Legos were described as new, but they were both missing pieces and some pages were torn! Sending them back was not cost effective. $25 lesson learned.
The 2004 Mercedes was even worse. It was described as "running perfectly and in need of no repair, maintenance or otherwise." The seller even had a receipt from a dealership showing a clean safety inspection.
In reality the car needed rear brakes($570,) transmission service($280,) both batteries replaced($550,) and a few small bits for a couple hundred more.
The ebay insurance for vehicles only covers repairs that total more than $1,000 per repair, so I got stuck with a $2k bill to make it perfect.
I am done with ebay for now.
The Legos were described as new, but they were both missing pieces and some pages were torn! Sending them back was not cost effective. $25 lesson learned.
The 2004 Mercedes was even worse. It was described as "running perfectly and in need of no repair, maintenance or otherwise." The seller even had a receipt from a dealership showing a clean safety inspection.
In reality the car needed rear brakes($570,) transmission service($280,) both batteries replaced($550,) and a few small bits for a couple hundred more.
The ebay insurance for vehicles only covers repairs that total more than $1,000 per repair, so I got stuck with a $2k bill to make it perfect.
I am done with ebay for now.
It's not really ebay per se, same things can happen when buying from retail brick and mortar or any car dealer.
As far as car buying, have a pre-purchase inspection done. Always. If the seller won't agree to that, walk.
As far as car buying, have a pre-purchase inspection done. Always. If the seller won't agree to that, walk.
bob338
Well-known
I agree that it's not ebay, it's the sellers, but ebay has been less responsive to problems lately.
There was a pre-inspection done on the car. I foolishly trusted that they did a decent inspection, but my mechanic found all kinds of stuff that they missed, if they even looked at the car. They also have a buyers protection deal, but again, it's for $1k per repair or something similar.
I could have driven the car back to Palm Springs, but like the Legos that my son insisted on keeping, my wife loves the car and I would rather fix it than drive back to Palm Springs.
I think most sellers have figured this out and are willing to risk getting a negative to sell something that would probably sell for less if they were honest about the condition.
kermaier
Well-known
Several times over the years, I've paid fair prices for lenses on eBay that were represented as being clean and in smooth mechanical condition, only to find issues including focus so stiff it hurts the fingers to turn, not-fully-seated front element, haze, rough aperture, dented focus ring that scrapes against the inner barrel, etc. Usually, I'm able to get a repair estimate from Essex or DAG or Sherry K., and offer the seller the option of paying for the service or taking the lens back. Most opt to defray the cost of the repair. If I got an absolute steal of a price, then I typically swallow any service costs without bothering the seller about misrepresented condition. So far, I can say I've only rarely been really unhappy with the end result. I think if you don't get angry, and communicate openly with the seller, differences can often be worked out.
::Ari
::Ari
btgc
Veteran
I've bought Tamron 46A 70-210/3.8-4 zoom (plastic finish, but fine glass) solely because of price. Seller marked it as shipped next day it received miniscule payment. My Tokina II 80-200/4 RMC is a good lens but already shows signs of hard youth so I better have a good spare. I use this kind of lenses mostly for a pool shots (read - humid, not-glass-friendly environment) for a family shots so I don't invest in SP/AT-X range. So I better buy some spares while sellers still give them away for free.
Ming Rider
Film, the next evolution.
I recently bought a used Canon EF 35-135 f4/5.6 Ultrasonic Zoom from a seller with a mixed feedback.
The price was £56 and described as superb with 'no dust or fungus', so figured it was worth the risk.
It was in excellent working and cosmetic condition, however the inside of the front element had a lovely fungus 'lawn' growing on it.
Took me about 20 minutes to remove the element and clean it with alchohol. Now very clear and a lovely shooter, so all in all pleased.
The price was £56 and described as superb with 'no dust or fungus', so figured it was worth the risk.
It was in excellent working and cosmetic condition, however the inside of the front element had a lovely fungus 'lawn' growing on it.
Took me about 20 minutes to remove the element and clean it with alchohol. Now very clear and a lovely shooter, so all in all pleased.
goamules
Well-known
Saying "Ebay has gotten bad..." is as ridiculous as saying "Humans in the world have gotten bad...." Ebay is not some mythical store where only perfect items are sold, from perfect, expert sellers. It's an online garage sale. You are buying USED mechanical items from anyone and everyone in the country.
And why assume buying an "older" lens is going to get you a flawless, time capsule item from what, the 1950s? Impossible standards. If the world wanted perfection and satisfaction with every purchase, we should have kept the brick and mortar stores alive. Instead, we put them out of business as everyone jumped on the convenience (and often, the super-cheapest prices ever) of the virtual yard sale, Ebay. You get what you pay for, look at Ebay for what it is. Trying to apply a conventional store's ethics and quality and service to "the world" is a fools game. You want more accurate descriptions, buy from KEH.
I bought a rare Leica from some granny on Ebay a while ago. The price was about 1/3 what a "real camera store" would charge. She packed it by wrapping it in a piece of newspaper and stuffing it into a thin VHS type box. It came with some goods and some bads. It needed a shutter job, which will bring the price to about 2/3 the going rate. Did I contact her and demand a refund? No. Return it? No. Because she didn't know any better, the camera is 80 years old, and I still got it cheaper than if I went to a camera show or brick and mortar.
And why assume buying an "older" lens is going to get you a flawless, time capsule item from what, the 1950s? Impossible standards. If the world wanted perfection and satisfaction with every purchase, we should have kept the brick and mortar stores alive. Instead, we put them out of business as everyone jumped on the convenience (and often, the super-cheapest prices ever) of the virtual yard sale, Ebay. You get what you pay for, look at Ebay for what it is. Trying to apply a conventional store's ethics and quality and service to "the world" is a fools game. You want more accurate descriptions, buy from KEH.
I bought a rare Leica from some granny on Ebay a while ago. The price was about 1/3 what a "real camera store" would charge. She packed it by wrapping it in a piece of newspaper and stuffing it into a thin VHS type box. It came with some goods and some bads. It needed a shutter job, which will bring the price to about 2/3 the going rate. Did I contact her and demand a refund? No. Return it? No. Because she didn't know any better, the camera is 80 years old, and I still got it cheaper than if I went to a camera show or brick and mortar.
hepcat
Former PH, USN
I buy on eBay and from Craigslist frequently. I, however, don't buy lenses, I buy bargains. I buy when I can get the item cheap enough that I can afford to have it serviced if necessary. I've got three lenses, a filter, and a Domke bag coming tomorrow or Saturday (if the world doesn't end, of course.
) that I bought from Craigslist and eBay. I'll be pleased with all of them, even if two of the older lenses need a CLA and collimation. Now, if I'd paid used retail value, and they'd been advertised as "like new" that would be a different issue... but I just don't buy that way.goamules
Well-known
I'm not saying I don't buy on ebay. I do all the time. Monthy usually. And while there are a few disappointments here and there, 90% of my buys are in the condition I expected. The prices are just so much better with it's huge market. Think of it this way, if you wanted a Leica Summicron locally, where would you go? Even in large cities you'd be lucky to find one camera store that had one. Online retailers may have 4-5, but their prices will be about double of what you can take a chance on with Ebay. That's what Ebay is - taking a chance. And it almost always works out if you make enough purchases. The person who has only bought on Ebay once or twice, and is very picky, is the one that usually complains about ebay.
Now selling on ebay is another matter. They have really stacked the deck against sellers because of just what started this post; people expecting the same standard from a virtual "garage sale" as they would get from a specialty brick and mortar store. So today, Ebay doesn't allow a bad buyer to receive bad feedback. The seller has to pay for arbitrary costs to "repair" used, vintage items. The seller has to allow ebay to control their paypal and associated bank accounts so the system can return the purchase price if any buyer makes any complaint, decides it "wasn't as described", pretends it didn't arrive, etc. The seller has no guarantee or recourse if the buyer never sends the "faulty" item back. Ebay gives their money back immediately, and you're on your own hoping to get your item back. And that could be a $5,000 rare Leica as easy as anything else. Basically, a seller is putting their neck out every time they sell something.
Now selling on ebay is another matter. They have really stacked the deck against sellers because of just what started this post; people expecting the same standard from a virtual "garage sale" as they would get from a specialty brick and mortar store. So today, Ebay doesn't allow a bad buyer to receive bad feedback. The seller has to pay for arbitrary costs to "repair" used, vintage items. The seller has to allow ebay to control their paypal and associated bank accounts so the system can return the purchase price if any buyer makes any complaint, decides it "wasn't as described", pretends it didn't arrive, etc. The seller has no guarantee or recourse if the buyer never sends the "faulty" item back. Ebay gives their money back immediately, and you're on your own hoping to get your item back. And that could be a $5,000 rare Leica as easy as anything else. Basically, a seller is putting their neck out every time they sell something.
thegman
Veteran
My eBay experience has been great, bar one problem, but I got a refund. These days though, I'm finding dealers are getting more realistic with prices, and are very competitive with eBay. I'm looking at getting a Rolleiflex GX at the moment, and the best price I've seen is a dealer.
That said, eBay is not full of scammers, no more so than newspaper/magazine classifieds anyway. If someone is selling something pricey and does not offer a refund, then walk away. We still have to be reasonable, careful, and sensible.
That said, eBay is not full of scammers, no more so than newspaper/magazine classifieds anyway. If someone is selling something pricey and does not offer a refund, then walk away. We still have to be reasonable, careful, and sensible.
bob338
Well-known
Actually, ebay has gotten worse. Their customer service and their willingness/ability to deal with problem sellers is much worse than it was years ago.
No one is saying ebay was ever a perfect, mythical place, but it was once a more interesting and safe place to spend money.
Sejanus.Aelianus
Veteran
Only one bad experience out of several hundred buying and selling. A dealer, no less, sold me a Nikkor that was "slightly stiff". Inevitably, it seized solid after a few minutes and he tried to weasel. Ebay refunded in less than a week and I made very sure he sent me the return postage before it was sent back.
Everyone else has been good to deal with.
Everyone else has been good to deal with.
I have had to get a refund thru buyer protection once, total was $6k, it was pretty painless. The vast majority of sales have been excellent.
As an ebay seller, I know how customers can be; believe me, there may be more shady buyers than sellers. Many have learned 'the system' and exploit it...but they can only do it so much, else they get banned. And they can only get away with it against inexperienced sellers.
If one looks at it from ebay's standpoint, with purchase disputes, they are being asked to be arbiters of things they have no knowledge of, and can't necessarily believe one party or the other. So they put together their buyer protection policies. The policies certainly aren't perfect, but the option is always there to agree to the terms, or not use ebay.
All that said, I would never wish anyone a bad experience and hope that there have been more than enough positives to overcome the negs for you...
As an ebay seller, I know how customers can be; believe me, there may be more shady buyers than sellers.
Many have learned 'the system' and exploit it...but they can only do it so much, else they get banned. And they can only get away with it against inexperienced sellers.If one looks at it from ebay's standpoint, with purchase disputes, they are being asked to be arbiters of things they have no knowledge of, and can't necessarily believe one party or the other. So they put together their buyer protection policies. The policies certainly aren't perfect, but the option is always there to agree to the terms, or not use ebay.
All that said, I would never wish anyone a bad experience and hope that there have been more than enough positives to overcome the negs for you...
thegman
Veteran
I've only ever had to ask eBay for help against a seller once. They came down on my side and refunded me right away. No complaints. I've found that if you play the game, use PayPal, have good feedback, then it is pretty safe.
Timmyjoe
Veteran
I'm swearing off eBay. It's always been dodgy, and with Leica gear, it's too easy to hide problems, and Chinese and Singaporean buyers always run the prices up through the roof.
Recently I won an M2 that I didn't need to be perfect, as I was planning on rebuilding it, and the description said:
"Beautiful Leica M2 rangefinder. Normal wear for a camera of this type. Photographs illustrate all highlights and flaws of camera"
When it arrived, the self timer was frozen solid, the shutter speeds were sluggish and pretty far off, and the second shutter curtain was curled. I thought I still may be able to salvage it, but I suspected the camera had been exposed to quite a bit of moisture. I popped off the self timer lever and here is what I found:
Rusted solid. That ain't fixable.
Still trying to get my money back from the seller.
Really a bummer.
Best,
-Tim
Recently I won an M2 that I didn't need to be perfect, as I was planning on rebuilding it, and the description said:
"Beautiful Leica M2 rangefinder. Normal wear for a camera of this type. Photographs illustrate all highlights and flaws of camera"
When it arrived, the self timer was frozen solid, the shutter speeds were sluggish and pretty far off, and the second shutter curtain was curled. I thought I still may be able to salvage it, but I suspected the camera had been exposed to quite a bit of moisture. I popped off the self timer lever and here is what I found:
Rusted solid. That ain't fixable.
Still trying to get my money back from the seller.
Really a bummer.
Best,
-Tim
That's a pretty easy thing to do if you file a buyer protection claim. Have you?
Timmyjoe
Veteran
Waiting for the seller to respond. You have to first try to resolve it through the seller before eBay Buyer Protection will step in. Seller is stalling me, claiming to be out of town traveling for the holidays.
Just frustrating.
Best,
-Tim
Just frustrating.
Best,
-Tim
Aah. Well, it shouldn't be a problem to get the money back, best of luck. Still frustrating.
goamules
Well-known
You will get a refund, I'm sure. Anecdotal evidence (the one person above who keeps saying Ebay doesn't do anything to help buyers notwithstanding) from everyone I talk to is Ebay is doing MORE today to help buyers when things go wrong.
On the M2, I think I agree there is more than "normal wear" with the shutter AND the stuck timer.
Again, most sellers might sell one camera a year among other items; old trumpets, vintage clothes, old woodworking tools. They cannot be experts at everything they sell. Does a seller have to disassemble a running pocket watch to make sure there are no worn gears inside? Run a 1950s blender through a 1 hour torture test to make sure the century old motor has a long life ahead of it? I bet the M2 seller was just repeating what he'd read on other listings about "normal wear", but didn't open it up or function test it. I usually ask about that stuff if it's an expensive item (more than $100).
On the M2, I think I agree there is more than "normal wear" with the shutter AND the stuck timer.
Again, most sellers might sell one camera a year among other items; old trumpets, vintage clothes, old woodworking tools. They cannot be experts at everything they sell. Does a seller have to disassemble a running pocket watch to make sure there are no worn gears inside? Run a 1950s blender through a 1 hour torture test to make sure the century old motor has a long life ahead of it? I bet the M2 seller was just repeating what he'd read on other listings about "normal wear", but didn't open it up or function test it. I usually ask about that stuff if it's an expensive item (more than $100).