Reformulated: Kodak HC-110

Freakscene · Sep 16, 2019

Ted Striker said:
HC-110 does not oxidize. If it did, the bottles would be compressed over time due to the consumption of the oxygen inside the bottles. I have had many many HC-110 bottles radically change color over the span of years and none of them ever suffered bottle compression, nor the sound of a vacuum being released when the bottle is opened. All signs of oxidation missing.

So Ted, if it is not an oxidation reaction, what do you suppose is happening in your HC-110 between it being pale clear yellow and dark red? I’m serious.

Marty

kiemchacsu · Sep 16, 2019

I've not got a chance to test the new one yet,
But what I can see is the price has been increased over 30%
From $28.50 to $39.95, Link from BHphotovideo

Ted Striker said:
If you look at B & H's web site, you'll see that there's a new entry under HC-110. Now labeled "New Formula" it appears in 2019 Kodak has made a very substantial change to the HC-110 formula. So substantial a change that former Kodak engineers consider this a different developer, very unlikely to have the same long shelf life that HC-110 is known for. I'll link the thread below where they talk about it.

HC-110 has been my go to developer for the past 10 years. Aside from DD-X, it's all I have ever used. You can still get the old formula now, but for how long, no one knows. I hardly shoot film now so my current liter of HC-110 will last me many, many, many years. But should I need a new developer, I will no longer turn to Kodak for this need as I am uninterested in this new formula.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/new-hc-110-formula.169322/

Ted Striker · Sep 17, 2019

Freakscene said:
So Ted, if it is not an oxidation reaction, what do you suppose is happening in your HC-110 between it being pale clear yellow and dark red? I’m serious.

Marty

HC-110's formula has no water in it. The absence of water often prevents many chemical reactions from happening. Once the bottle has been opened, air gets into it. This air contains moisture and over time, more and more moisture gets into the bottle. This is absorbed by the syrup and so various degradation reactions can now occur. While the syrup may be degraded in visible ways, it is still able to develop film (thankfully) and so we can safely ignore those reactions.

p.giannakis · Sep 17, 2019

I have to say that i am no expert in chemistry - but my wife is.
According to her, oxidation does not need oxygen in order to take place. It doesn't need water either. If chemicals react between them and one absorbes electrons as a result of the reaction, that element is 'oxidised'.

That's my 2 cents.

sepiareverb · Sep 17, 2019

Freakscene said:
So Ted, if it is not an oxidation reaction, what do you suppose is happening in your HC-110 between it being pale clear yellow and dark red? I’m serious.

Marty

My thought exactly.

Ted Striker · Sep 17, 2019

p.giannakis said:
I have to say that i am no expert in chemistry - but my wife is.
According to her, oxidation does not need oxygen in order to take place. It doesn't need water either. If chemicals react between them and one absorbes electrons as a result of the reaction, that element is 'oxidised'.

That's my 2 cents.

I'm a graduate degreed chemist with just shy of 30 years of industrial experience.

Yes, oxidation can happen in the absence of oxygen. However, if oxygen IS present (which it will be in an HC-110 bottle), then that will be the mechanism of oxidation and so will then be consumed.

Far more likely is that moisture is being added to the bottle as air enters. HC-110 was formulated specifically without water and that is why it is stable.

Oxidized liquids always consume oxygen (if it's there) during the oxidation process. My laboratory bench top shows many bottles showing various signs of being crushed from the outside due to lower pressure inside. HC-110 never shows that phenomena.

Phil_F_NM · Sep 17, 2019

My HC110 bottles always collapse.

Phil Forrest

Ted Striker · Sep 17, 2019

Phil_F_NM said:
My HC110 bottles always collapse.

Phil Forrest

I have been using HC-110 for over a decade now and have never seen the slightest evidence that they collapse due to internal lack of pressure.

Nor have I heard, until your post, anyone state that they collapse.

brbo · Sep 17, 2019

Mine's collapsed as well. It's been sitting closed, 3/4 full and unopened for probably 5 years now.

I guess it shows how great I think HC-110 is...

Phil_F_NM · Sep 17, 2019

Ted Striker said:
I have been using HC-110 for over a decade...

Nor have I heard, until your post, anyone state that they collapse.

A decade huh? That's a long time. &#55357;&#56900;

Phil Forrest

Freakscene · Sep 17, 2019

Ted Striker said:
HC-110's formula has no water in it. The absence of water often prevents many chemical reactions from happening. Once the bottle has been opened, air gets into it. This air contains moisture and over time, more and more moisture gets into the bottle. This is absorbed by the syrup and so various degradation reactions can now occur. While the syrup may be degraded in visible ways, it is still able to develop film (thankfully) and so we can safely ignore those reactions.

So your theory is that the colour change is caused by oxidation over time facilitated by absorption of atmospheric water into the developer concentrate? What about autoxidaton to semiquinones and quinones?

Marty

Ted Striker · Sep 18, 2019

Freakscene said:
So your theory is that the colour change is caused by oxidation over time facilitated by absorption of atmospheric water into the developer concentrate? What about autoxidaton to semiquinones and quinones?

Marty

Again, for the 3rd time, there is no evidence whatsoever of oxidation. If oxidation were happening, oxygen would be consumed. Oxygen is a VERY reactive chemical and if the contents of HC-110 were capable of being oxidized, then oxygen would be consumed. It's that simple.

Just because a chemical reaction is clearly happening does not in any way automatically mean that the mechanism is oxidation.

Freakscene · Sep 19, 2019

Ted Striker said:
Again, for the 3rd time, there is no evidence whatsoever of oxidation. If oxidation were happening, oxygen would be consumed. Oxygen is a VERY reactive chemical and if the contents of HC-110 were capable of being oxidized, then oxygen would be consumed. It's that simple.

Just because a chemical reaction is clearly happening does not in any way automatically mean that the mechanism is oxidation.

So sodium burning in fluorine is not oxidation?

Marty

Ted Striker · Sep 19, 2019

Freakscene said:
So sodium burning in fluorine is not oxidation?

Marty

I never said that.

froyd · Sep 19, 2019

In my experience, Kodak Alaris is very prompt answering consumer questions. Might stop a lot of the speculation about HC110.

Contact-Us@kodakalaris.com
1-888-242-2424

john_s · Sep 19, 2019

p.giannakis said:
I have to say that i am no expert in chemistry - but my wife is.
According to her, oxidation does not need oxygen in order to take place. It doesn't need water either. If chemicals react between them and one absorbes electrons as a result of the reaction, that element is 'oxidised'.

That's my 2 cents.

There's an interesting thread over at apug where this, or something like it, appears to be occurring in Pyrocat that is mixed in glycol without water. When the glycol versions were announced it was thought that that they would offer much longer shelf life (and it seems that they do) but they can still deteriorate. I don't know if that's because after repeated opening of the bottle some water from the air is gradually introduced, or, as been suggested, there is actually a reaction taking place which is not primarily about water.

john_s · Sep 19, 2019

Freakscene said:
So sodium burning in fluorine is not oxidation?

Marty

When we talk as non-chemists that something is oxidized, we usually mean it's spoiled by a reaction with oxygen, e.g. a bottle of wine that's been open too long, a water-based developer that's gone brown. However, confusingly for me whose chemistry knowledge is minimal, chemists refer to it a a loss of an electron of one component in a reaction which doesn't need to have anything to do with oxygen.

john_s · Sep 19, 2019

Ted Striker said:
I have been using HC-110 for over a decade now and have never seen the slightest evidence that they collapse due to internal lack of pressure.

Nor have I heard, until your post, anyone state that they collapse.

If you open the bottle frequently then the pressure difference between inside and outside the bottle will be equalised frequently and will hardly be noticed. I had one, unopened, for years and it did collapse a bit.

Freakscene · Sep 19, 2019

Oxidation is the loss of an electron or electrons. It occurs often in the absence of oxygen.

Ted doesn’t want to say what he thinks _is_ occurring and argues in circles. Being a chemist with 30+ years of experience I just thought he may offer an explanation for what does occur in HC-110 over time. Clearly not.

It’s time for me to leave this alone.

Marty

dourbalistar · Sep 19, 2019

Oxidation: What happens to your breath when you argue with someone over the internet. 😉

I think this xkcd comic is apropos:
https://xkcd.com/386/

Reformulated: Kodak HC-110

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