refrigerated vs frozen?

rbiemer

rbiemer

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Unexpectedly I have an extra fridge. (Never thought I would type that sentence!) It is a small "dorm size" one.
And my first thought was to use it for film.
I generally buy 10 or a dozen rolls at a time but would be happy to buy more.
Is just cooling rather than freezing going to make that much difference in longevity?
If I set the fridge at its coolest, it will get close to freezing--34 or 35 f--but not below.

Or I could just load it up with Dr. Pepper for the coming summer...

Rob
 
Refrigeration is generally recommended over freezing anyway. I freeze with no problems for long term, but some knowledgeable people advise against that.

Dr Pepper!
 
Been pondering along similar lines. Some time ago I bought quite a bit of film (120 & 135, B&W & color) which has been refrigerated (not frozen) ever since - but due to health reasons I haven't been able to shoot much of anything and it's all at, or close to, the expiration dates. I wonder how well it will work now? How much longer would it be safe to use (in terms of getting worthwhile results)?
 
Chemical reactions have a log dependency on temperature. So the colder the better if you want to slow down chemical degradation. Nothing slows down cosmic-ray fogging.

I found this text from Kodak's literature.

"Keeping your raw stock and exposed film safe.
Raw Stock:
• Unprocessed film must be kept cool to preserve quality, ideally at 55°F / 13°C
• Keep film cool until just before shooting
• For storage of film for longer than 6 months, store at 0°F / -18°C
• Allow frozen film to warm up gradually before opening can, to avoid condensation"

The presence of oxygen and, or water can increase reaction rates. So be sure use air-tight,
water-tight containers.
 
Mark C said:
Refrigeration is generally recommended over freezing anyway. I freeze with no problems for long term, but some knowledgeable people advise against that.

Dr Pepper!
Click to expand...
All of Fuji's data sheets (for their colour films, anyway) have always recommended below zero C for long term storage of undeveloped film.
Cheers
Brett
 
I have always frozen my film for long term storage and have never experienced any ill effects. The plastic can that 35mm film comes in is waterproof as is the foil wrap that unopened 120 or 220 film comes in.

I freeze my film in one gallon size ziploc freezer bags as an extra layer of protection from condensation when it is taken out of the freezer to warm up.
 
I never knew about oxygen, but noticed that a couple years ago myself. I was given some fairly old 8x10 sheet film in an emulsion I was interested in. The sheets were mostly fine, but had image deterioration along the edges where the inner package had been opened. I've seen these enough times now to have come to that conclusion, but it is nice to see it confirmed.

I've had surprisingly good results with very old film when still in the factory sealed foil packs. I have some here now I need to try (sheets, again) that has one package open and one sealed. It will be interesting to see what they do. I hope to be able to salvage 4x5 or 5x7 size sheets out of some of these.
 
I should probably not have said "generally recommended", but have been told by some pretty authoritative sources that freezing is not a good idea. That caught me by surprise, and I had decided this must be a theoretical issue, more than a real problem. I'm glad to hear that freezing was officially recommended since that is indeed what I do, and have had no problem. I bought a large chest type freezer just for film and paper.

I apologize for the mistaken information; I should have looked further before speaking.
 
No apology needed, one of the great things about this site is that members usually do their best to share their knowledge, but we all get it wrong from time to time: I certainly do.
Cheers,
Brett
 
Mark C said:
I should probably not have said "generally recommended", but have been told by some pretty authoritative sources that freezing is not a good idea. ...
Click to expand...

You weren't completely wrong.

Theoretically, freezing is better. In practice, though, it is often better for many (most?) people to store at least portion of your inventory at warmer temperatures. The reason is that humans are generally pretty poor planners and are decidedly lazy.

Frozen film can take quite some time to completely rise to room temp. Opening the factory sealed package before the film warms completely can do more damage than would have occurred if the film had just been stored at room temp.

If you can plan to need the film you've frozen at least a day before you need it and aren't too lazy to get it out of the freezer a day in advance then it's fine to freeze your film. If not, keep it in the cool but unfrozen if you can plan several hours in advance. If you're the type that always needs instant gratification then store it at room temp.
 
rbiemer said:
................ Is just cooling rather than freezing going to make that much difference in longevity?
If I set the fridge at its coolest, it will get close to freezing--34 or 35 f--but not below. .................
Click to expand...

H2O is a liquid (water) at +1 degree C and a solid (ice) and -1 degree C. Big difference but that is H20 and you are talking about film. With film, the only difference is a few degrees.

Now we did have a discussion about this quite a few years back when Marty Freakscene from Australia came up with some idea about the gelatin freezing at exactly the same temperature as water. And, I just gave up. But I still contend that the only difference with film is that it no more than a few degrees cooler at 34 F than at 31F, the same difference between 37F and 34F or 30F and 27F.
 
Bob Michaels said:
H2O is a liquid (water) at +1 degree C and a solid (ice) and -1 degree C. Big difference but that is H20 and you are talking about film. With film, the only difference is a few degrees.

Now we did have a discussion about this quite a few years back when Marty Freakscene from Australia came up with some idea about the gelatin freezing at exactly the same temperature as water. And, I just gave up. But I still contend that the only difference with film is that it no more than a few degrees cooler at 34 F than at 31F, the same difference between 37F and 34F or 30F and 27F.
Click to expand...

Bob has a good memory. It was slightly over 3 years ago. The thread is here:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101532

Pure gelatin is a material where the temperature where it becomes solid and its freezing point are different. This is called hysteresis. Gelatin freezes at -0.5°C.

The main thing to be careful about when cold storing film, whether freezing or chilling it, is to make sure it does not undergo a lot of temperature cycles. Self-defrosting freezers and refrigerators cycle the temperature up and down to get rid of ice. You can mitigate this to some extent by keeping the film away from the edges of the freezer or refrigerator and insulating it.

Marty
 
Thanks, all for your responses.
I am a chef by trade so proper rotation in and out of freezers/fridges is no big deal for me.
I also know there is a difference between storing food at just freezing--32 or 0-- and storing it at well below freezing. I have one freezer set up for longer term storage and that one stays right around -25f.
So, I can reasonably expect to keep this fridge just above freezing--meaning 0c or 32f--but not really any lower.
Rob
 
For me, the bricks (packages of 5 or 10 films) go in the freezer. Once I start a brick, I move it to the fridge. And I always have two or three films waiting in my camera-bag, so they're warmed up sufficiently to shoot.

With bulk film: Unopened rolls in the freezer, partial rolls in the fridge.

With paper: Closed packages in the freezer (if they fit), opened and large packages in the fridge. Commonly used paper goes in the papersafe. If I'm not printing for a long period, and there's room, I sometimes put the entire papersafe in the refridgerator, but I often forget.

I'm lucky enough to have a dedicated refridgerator in my darkroom though. If you're sharing the fridge with `normal' people, this might not be realistic.
 
I am relatively certain that if Kodak recommends freezing (-18C/ 0F) for long term storage of film, there is nothing wrong with doing so.

Gelatine as pure substance is a solid.
Therefore it does not freeze itself at any temperature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelatin
Film is an emulsion that might contain some residual water content. Theoretically this could pose an issue but in reality (see Kodak recommendation) it isn't.

I don't really care too much nowadays as I went digital. The SD cards are not that finicky when it comes to storage :D.
When I was using film I also froze the 10 or 50 pack bricks and observed any issues.
 
B.J.Scharp said:
For me, the bricks (packages of 5 or 10 films) go in the freezer. Once I start a brick, I move it to the fridge. And I always have two or three films waiting in my camera-bag, so they're warmed up sufficiently to shoot.

With bulk film: Unopened rolls in the freezer, partial rolls in the fridge.
Click to expand...

I do this too.

I actually received a new freezer this morning, one that does not auto-defrost, and will be keeping most of my stock (a lot of which is 5-15 yo) in it. It's a top loaded model which has a lot more storage space than those that open from the front.

My wife suggested that this delivery means the little fridge I also have in my photographic HQ area could now be disposed of but I'm not so sure I want to do that. It's going to be an interesting negotiation...
 
Unless your ambient temperature is really high, or you are storing for a long time, I have never felt the need to refrigerate B&W film. If you're buying film then using it within a few months... even six months... I doubt you will have any problem. It was much more important with E6 and other colour films.

I've often used pretty ancient well out of date film, but aside from a bit of additional base plus fog density, there's not been much to report. A touch of speed loss, but we are talking high speed films five years out of date here, like Neopan 1600.
 
This is a really useful thread. Thanks all to for the comments. I keep my film in the refrigerator but I have never frozen it. Mostly because I do not have any frost fridges and I wondered what would happen with the ice build-up etc. I shoot film that is out of date quire regularly and I can't tell it apart from anything else. Mostly I'm shooting B+W, E6 and "sigh" used to be K14 too...
 
While storage in a refrigerator or freezer can be highly beneficial, you should not rely on it to extend film life beyond the “Develop Before” date. This is especially important with high-speed films, which can be fogged by cosmic and gamma radiation that is naturally present all around us. Neither cooling nor lead-foil bags will prevent this effect.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/e30/e30.pdf

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/tib/tib5202.shtml
For movie film but cross applicable.

Can we also dispel the erroneous use of the term "emulsion" ?

Film is an emulsion that might contain some residual water content.

This is the common term used but is not an accurate representation. The "emulsion" is in fact a suspension of particles in a fluid, which is gelatin in solution.
Not relevant in discussions often but pertinent to discussions of freezing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photographic_emulsion
 
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