DRabbit
Registered
I could shorten his article by 99%. What he is suggesting is a full-frame EVIL/mirror-less camera.
Excuse me for being blunt, but I happen to think his article is trash. The M8 was my first rangefinder and I don't think I'm all that unique. I don't think the world of rangefinders dies off along with it's "old" users.
Leica's biggest problem in becoming more "main stream" has always been price... but it's obvious they like it that way. I hope the crowd of rangefinder users always remains large enough for Leica to stay afloat, but if they go making essentially the m4/3 camera for $6000 I'm not interested when, by then, the competition will be way ahead and selling the same thing for a fraction of the price.
What I'm willing to pay top-dollar for from Leica is the rangefinder experience.... the whole thing. The body's design, the way it feels in my hands, and the way it handles from aperture ring to rangefinder focus mechanism. I don't want just any camera I can mount an M lens to (have the E-P1 already) to replace my M.
Excuse me for being blunt, but I happen to think his article is trash. The M8 was my first rangefinder and I don't think I'm all that unique. I don't think the world of rangefinders dies off along with it's "old" users.
Leica's biggest problem in becoming more "main stream" has always been price... but it's obvious they like it that way. I hope the crowd of rangefinder users always remains large enough for Leica to stay afloat, but if they go making essentially the m4/3 camera for $6000 I'm not interested when, by then, the competition will be way ahead and selling the same thing for a fraction of the price.
What I'm willing to pay top-dollar for from Leica is the rangefinder experience.... the whole thing. The body's design, the way it feels in my hands, and the way it handles from aperture ring to rangefinder focus mechanism. I don't want just any camera I can mount an M lens to (have the E-P1 already) to replace my M.
MaxElmar
Well-known
Still waiting for an EVF even remotely up to the task. Major gripe - time lag - then resolution.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Ah, another Leica-related thread, again derailed by the bashers.
I wonder what the bookies in Vegas give for odds on that not happening.
I wonder what the bookies in Vegas give for odds on that not happening.
maddoc
... likes film again.
CMOS sensor is the next logical step for me, with better performance at high ISO ranges compared to CCD. A FF CMOS sensor based RF camera would be a similar step in technology as the 21mm and 24mm Summilux lenses.
BearCatCow
Established
Actually I really liked his article. His idea of a new focusing mechanism sounds very interesting. I am not sure if the computing processing power is there yet but the idea of automatically indicating the area of greatest contrast/focus while you manually focus the lens sounds very useful.
One of my favorite things about RF is the improved certainty of where you are focused. His idea would enhance this ability while preserving the compactness of the lens. In addition this lets us do away with the RF parts - patch, prism, windows, etc, and allow for bodies to be even more compact.
Of course like others said, this technology can be implemented for DSLRs or GF1 type cameras as well. But that's not a problem. Technology to improve the manual focus of other cameras sounds good to me.
One of my favorite things about RF is the improved certainty of where you are focused. His idea would enhance this ability while preserving the compactness of the lens. In addition this lets us do away with the RF parts - patch, prism, windows, etc, and allow for bodies to be even more compact.
Of course like others said, this technology can be implemented for DSLRs or GF1 type cameras as well. But that's not a problem. Technology to improve the manual focus of other cameras sounds good to me.
aizan
Veteran
sounds an awful lot like what i expect the r-system solution will be. he even talks about shielding the lcd with a rolleiflex-style folding hood and displaying hyperfocal focusing info on the screen. dude's stealing my ideas! 
it's obvious he prefers a groundglass over direct viewfinders. i think all he really wants is compactness and optical quality, not the unique viewing system that makes rangefinders so good at what they do.
it's obvious he prefers a groundglass over direct viewfinders. i think all he really wants is compactness and optical quality, not the unique viewing system that makes rangefinders so good at what they do.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
When the rumour of an M9 was catching on, I thought I could see the contours of a digital CL in the Leica promo video. Turned out I was dead wrong, but I still think that they should create exactly the kind of digital CL you are suggesting, John!
Ronald_H
Don't call me Ron
This thread is predictable, the article... thought provoking.
If people want a modernized Leica, a ' full frame GF1' that's fine. If people want a classic rangefinder, that's fine too. The question is, will Leica cater to both markets? Are they even capable of doing that? And if they are, what would the 'new style Leica' cost?
It would be great if a new style Leica would be made, but Leica's have ceased to be cameras long ago. They are mythical revered objects where rationalization does not apply. And you're gonna pay for that mystique. I'm looking to Nikon instead for a mirrorless, RF-less professional camera.
If people want a modernized Leica, a ' full frame GF1' that's fine. If people want a classic rangefinder, that's fine too. The question is, will Leica cater to both markets? Are they even capable of doing that? And if they are, what would the 'new style Leica' cost?
It would be great if a new style Leica would be made, but Leica's have ceased to be cameras long ago. They are mythical revered objects where rationalization does not apply. And you're gonna pay for that mystique. I'm looking to Nikon instead for a mirrorless, RF-less professional camera.
I agree... the death of the rangefinder has been talked about for 50 years. Yet, there are more rangefinders available new today than 20 years ago.
victoriapio
Well-known
I can see both sides of this issue and agree with MR on two issues: first, there are lots of tweaks that will improve the M8/M9/MX just as there were for the succession of film Ms. Second, now MAY BE a good time for Leica to R&D to ultimate digital RF (and I won't begin to speculate on all this entails) if the end result is a less expensive system. If the ultimate digital Rf continues skyrocket in price, I fear the market will be too small for profitabilty.
A few suggestions on improvements of any future digital Ms:
1) from someone whose M8 shutter just blew up (probably less than 25,000 or so clicks), digital reliabilty needs to be another top priority for Leica and better pricing and "followup" when major issues like failing shutters arise.
2. I do not use a thumbs up, but obviously a better grip design is needed.
3. The removeable bottom plate must GO. Thank you Luigi for your interesting bottom plate product - it may not be perfect but I can now change batteries and cards without taking the bottom plate off!
4. Larger focus patch on the rangefinder. Very few photos have the main focus point in the center of the image. A larger - or perhaps differently shaped - focus patch would be a nice improvement, allowing for easier composition and lessening the time to "focus then compose" when both could be done simulaneously.
5. Obviously faster recording times and preview times would be nice.
A few suggestions on improvements of any future digital Ms:
1) from someone whose M8 shutter just blew up (probably less than 25,000 or so clicks), digital reliabilty needs to be another top priority for Leica and better pricing and "followup" when major issues like failing shutters arise.
2. I do not use a thumbs up, but obviously a better grip design is needed.
3. The removeable bottom plate must GO. Thank you Luigi for your interesting bottom plate product - it may not be perfect but I can now change batteries and cards without taking the bottom plate off!
4. Larger focus patch on the rangefinder. Very few photos have the main focus point in the center of the image. A larger - or perhaps differently shaped - focus patch would be a nice improvement, allowing for easier composition and lessening the time to "focus then compose" when both could be done simulaneously.
5. Obviously faster recording times and preview times would be nice.
Traut
Well-known
I think most of what he is espousing is found in the Gf-1. The technical arguments about sensor size not withstanding. The evolution of this type of camera is assured and at a quick pace no less. A better EVF (it's not bad now) provision for accessory VFs and improvement in sensor whcih is ensured will make what he wants a reality. I have an M8 and the GF1/EP1/G1. I like the Leica for its form factor but am not blinded by it.
biggambi
Vivere!
This is certainly not his finest example of authorship. I happen to read his web articles and I enjoy them. But, as others have pointed out, he is not describing a camera that would remain a digital M. I do think Leica has a potential market in another product that utilizes their M lenses. I think they should exploit it, by creating two legitimate high end bodies. If they work with another company to develop the product. There could be the release of another option at a lower price point. Also, by having electronic systems take over for mechanical systems production costs can be cut. Therefore, Leica potentially would benefit with the diversification of its market.
As for what is the use of further models being developed within the M family: Integrating refinements and further advancements in the electronics. One of the benefits in these advancements would be returning to the width of the M6/7. Also, I do not see how it can be said that the interest in the M will not continue. Certainly there are people on this very forum that have come to know Leica for the first time through the M8 & M8.2. Leica and so many other companies do not seem to be so concerned with conquering the world through large production volume.
There does seem to be a shift as to who the M serves best. It may very well be that it no longer serves the photojournalist as it did at one time. I don't know, as I am not a photojournalist. But, Leica has never been a high production company, and it has always been an expensive option among the worlds offerings. My kit has always been a combination of used and new. I am not wealthy, but it was and is a system that speaks to me. My take on Reichmann's article is that he is looking to push the envelope. He has a true love for the Leica M, and he would like to see it better fit his needs. This is never a bad thing. It is always worth examining. It just might not be an M.
As for what is the use of further models being developed within the M family: Integrating refinements and further advancements in the electronics. One of the benefits in these advancements would be returning to the width of the M6/7. Also, I do not see how it can be said that the interest in the M will not continue. Certainly there are people on this very forum that have come to know Leica for the first time through the M8 & M8.2. Leica and so many other companies do not seem to be so concerned with conquering the world through large production volume.
There does seem to be a shift as to who the M serves best. It may very well be that it no longer serves the photojournalist as it did at one time. I don't know, as I am not a photojournalist. But, Leica has never been a high production company, and it has always been an expensive option among the worlds offerings. My kit has always been a combination of used and new. I am not wealthy, but it was and is a system that speaks to me. My take on Reichmann's article is that he is looking to push the envelope. He has a true love for the Leica M, and he would like to see it better fit his needs. This is never a bad thing. It is always worth examining. It just might not be an M.
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visiondr
cyclic iconoclast
You are spot on in your analysis. In a world of rapid technological progress, tech devices are, essentially, disposable.
victoriapio
Well-known
biggambi;1241315...I do think Leica has a potential market in another product that utilizes their M lenses. I think they should exploit it said:
nemjo
Avatar Challenge
I'm affraid you forgot the FSU cameras...
But even without them, I'm not sure that it was true...
(I am speaking about the numbers.)
According to MR's proposal: the number of existing M (and LTM) lenses makes sense of such a "full frame GF1.
nemjo
kzphoto
Well-known
I'm in this boat here. If you can give me something as bright as the finder on my M6TTL, without lag, then I'm game.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I must be going insane, because I thought the M8, M8.2 and M9 had something as bright as the finder on the M6, and had absolutely no lag.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Let me try some of this:
If people want a modernized Harley Davidson, a "four-wheel drive Toyota", that's fine.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Oh, you've received a letter from Leica saying it's their last camera? Are you including the S2/successors?