bmattock
Veteran
Well, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I've been asked to do the wedding photography for the daughter of one of my wife's coworkers. Seems she saw one of my photos and loved it and thinks I'm the world's greatest photographer or something. Hmph. I've enclosed the evidence - a quick photo I did for another of my wife's coworkers - we all took our dogs to the lake for some exercise a couple weekends ago.
Anyway, here' s the thing - as most of you know, I am not a pro photographer, let alone a wedding photographer. I am aware that this is a very specialized field and that it is very demanding. I also have no desire to take food off the table of a working wedding photographer by butting in. And of course I appreciate the fact that this day is one of the most important days of this young woman's life - she would not appreciate having her memories of the blessed event marred by lousy photos.
WIth all this in mind, I told my wife to invite the prospective bride and her mom over to our house last night. We had a talk about this - they informed me that their budget was such that they could not afford a wedding photographer at all. If not me, they intend to just use some old one-time-use cameras from Walmart and that's that.
OK, if it is a choice between me and nothing - I am happy to oblige. I can use the experience and they fully understand that a) I am not a pro, b) I have never shot a wedding before, and c) my work comes with an Arkansas Warranty - if it breaks in half before they get it home, they get to keep both halves.
I have done some homework - but please read over this and correct me if I am going wrong or if you have some thoughts on things I"m missing. I'm appealing for your help here!
1) I told them I need the name of the minister and location of the church. I intend to talk to the minister and find out what the 'rules' are for taking photographs, places I can stand during the services, and so on. I realize that standing on the altar can be a no-no at certain times in certain churces, and flash photography is often forbidden, etc.
2) I also want to make an appointment to come by the church and map out my shooting angles, using my wife to stand in for the bride so I can make sure I have my shots down cold.
3) I need a list of poses/people that they want - and I have just bought a couple of wedding photography books on Amazon to try and get that list. I have my own wedding album to go by, but I'd like to make sure I'm not missing anything.
4) I am going to get a list of brochures of wedding albums and printing services and get those to mama of the bride. I told her I'd do the wedding for nothing, just a model release (so I can use it as an example for future work) and they pay for all materials. I will only be out my time on this, and I figure this is time well spent. Any suggestions on companies, etc, to either embrace or avoid when it comes to this? Our own wedding album had a cutom-engraved name on the front - but they mis-spelled my wife's name. THREE TIMES! They finally told us to stop bothering them. Took a year to get even close to my wife's real name, and we were writing it down for them! For real! I'd like to avoid that kind of problem.
5) The bride has her dress already - she is planning to have her hair done and then appear at my house in a couple of weeks to do some portrait shots - just her and her mom. I need some real help with this - I guess I need just about everything except a camera and film. I need a posing stool (or will a basic chair work fine?) lights, backdrop material and stands, etc. I know they sell all that stuff on eBoy and Adorama, etc - no problem there. But the problem is that I don't know what a good basic setup is - how much it costs - and so on. I've got some books on portrait photography - they're fine for setting up poses, and they show light positioning, etc. But they don't say what KIND of lights - brands, ratings, and etc. I don't know if JTL is better than Alien Bees or what have you. And of course, I'll be buying this stuff out of my own pocket, but hope to be using it again and again in the future.
So - tall order, huh? I've got a couple of weeks until doing the portrait, a couple of months until the wedding.
Any and all help appreciated!
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
PS - As to equipment - I plan on using my Canon T60 and Canon FTbN with various FD-mount lenses for the wedding proper. If I cannot take flash photos inside the church, etc - I'll be breaking out my Bessa R and Canon lenses with very fast B&W film and doing available light work. For the portraiture, I plan to use my Bronica C's with Nikkor lenses. All very old stuff, but all gone through and trustworthy. I'd love to whip out a vintage fixed-lens RF, but dare not - I'd hate to have a shutter stick on me at the wrong time, etc. My wife (bless her) is going to be my sherpa - I mean, assistant (she volunteered, really)!
Anyway, here' s the thing - as most of you know, I am not a pro photographer, let alone a wedding photographer. I am aware that this is a very specialized field and that it is very demanding. I also have no desire to take food off the table of a working wedding photographer by butting in. And of course I appreciate the fact that this day is one of the most important days of this young woman's life - she would not appreciate having her memories of the blessed event marred by lousy photos.
WIth all this in mind, I told my wife to invite the prospective bride and her mom over to our house last night. We had a talk about this - they informed me that their budget was such that they could not afford a wedding photographer at all. If not me, they intend to just use some old one-time-use cameras from Walmart and that's that.
OK, if it is a choice between me and nothing - I am happy to oblige. I can use the experience and they fully understand that a) I am not a pro, b) I have never shot a wedding before, and c) my work comes with an Arkansas Warranty - if it breaks in half before they get it home, they get to keep both halves.
I have done some homework - but please read over this and correct me if I am going wrong or if you have some thoughts on things I"m missing. I'm appealing for your help here!
1) I told them I need the name of the minister and location of the church. I intend to talk to the minister and find out what the 'rules' are for taking photographs, places I can stand during the services, and so on. I realize that standing on the altar can be a no-no at certain times in certain churces, and flash photography is often forbidden, etc.
2) I also want to make an appointment to come by the church and map out my shooting angles, using my wife to stand in for the bride so I can make sure I have my shots down cold.
3) I need a list of poses/people that they want - and I have just bought a couple of wedding photography books on Amazon to try and get that list. I have my own wedding album to go by, but I'd like to make sure I'm not missing anything.
4) I am going to get a list of brochures of wedding albums and printing services and get those to mama of the bride. I told her I'd do the wedding for nothing, just a model release (so I can use it as an example for future work) and they pay for all materials. I will only be out my time on this, and I figure this is time well spent. Any suggestions on companies, etc, to either embrace or avoid when it comes to this? Our own wedding album had a cutom-engraved name on the front - but they mis-spelled my wife's name. THREE TIMES! They finally told us to stop bothering them. Took a year to get even close to my wife's real name, and we were writing it down for them! For real! I'd like to avoid that kind of problem.
5) The bride has her dress already - she is planning to have her hair done and then appear at my house in a couple of weeks to do some portrait shots - just her and her mom. I need some real help with this - I guess I need just about everything except a camera and film. I need a posing stool (or will a basic chair work fine?) lights, backdrop material and stands, etc. I know they sell all that stuff on eBoy and Adorama, etc - no problem there. But the problem is that I don't know what a good basic setup is - how much it costs - and so on. I've got some books on portrait photography - they're fine for setting up poses, and they show light positioning, etc. But they don't say what KIND of lights - brands, ratings, and etc. I don't know if JTL is better than Alien Bees or what have you. And of course, I'll be buying this stuff out of my own pocket, but hope to be using it again and again in the future.
So - tall order, huh? I've got a couple of weeks until doing the portrait, a couple of months until the wedding.
Any and all help appreciated!
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
PS - As to equipment - I plan on using my Canon T60 and Canon FTbN with various FD-mount lenses for the wedding proper. If I cannot take flash photos inside the church, etc - I'll be breaking out my Bessa R and Canon lenses with very fast B&W film and doing available light work. For the portraiture, I plan to use my Bronica C's with Nikkor lenses. All very old stuff, but all gone through and trustworthy. I'd love to whip out a vintage fixed-lens RF, but dare not - I'd hate to have a shutter stick on me at the wrong time, etc. My wife (bless her) is going to be my sherpa - I mean, assistant (she volunteered, really)!
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Honu-Hugger
Well-known
Bill,
I would have loved to offer some worthwhile advice, but I just wanted to be the first to say "I'm sorry!"
I would have loved to offer some worthwhile advice, but I just wanted to be the first to say "I'm sorry!"
Honu-Hugger
Well-known
P. S. From the little I've read about wedding photography you seem to be on the right track. Good luck with it -- your heart is in the right place on this and I bet the results will be great!
mac_wt
Cameras are like bunnies
Bill,
That sounds like a tough assignment. I have absolutly no expertise in this field, but to me it seems you have most of it covered. But regarding 5): if I wasn't used to taking this kind of portraits, I wouldn't risk doing it for the first time with a lot of new equipment. I think you would be better off with some available light shots in a more 'natural' environment. I assume the bride isn't a professional model either?
Also, for the big day, it might be wise to have a second person around (maybe even with a point-and-shoot camera), covering the same events from a different angle.
Wim
That sounds like a tough assignment. I have absolutly no expertise in this field, but to me it seems you have most of it covered. But regarding 5): if I wasn't used to taking this kind of portraits, I wouldn't risk doing it for the first time with a lot of new equipment. I think you would be better off with some available light shots in a more 'natural' environment. I assume the bride isn't a professional model either?
Also, for the big day, it might be wise to have a second person around (maybe even with a point-and-shoot camera), covering the same events from a different angle.
Wim
W
wlewisiii
Guest
You have my sincere sympathy.
I do a bit of shooting of events at my parish. No weddings, but several services. So here's a couple of things:
Try to do your practice work at the church at roughly the same time of day as the service will be. Often stained glass lets in considerably more or less light depending on the angle of the sun. Usually if the lights are on in a church, 800 is all the faster you'll need.
What ever body and lens you decide to use buy, borrow or rent an exact duplicate to back it up.
Make sure they want black and white or not - some like that traditional look, some don't. If not, get a few rolls of your favorite color negative (Kodak has a new pro 800 color film that I've read good reviews of)
Here's an online wedding photography textbook: http://www.camerahobby.com/WeddingTOC.htm It may give you some ideas.
Oh, if there is a really nice piece of glasswork at the church that gets backlit well by natural light, it can make a really nice backdrop for formal portraits.
Hope this is of some help,
William
I do a bit of shooting of events at my parish. No weddings, but several services. So here's a couple of things:
Try to do your practice work at the church at roughly the same time of day as the service will be. Often stained glass lets in considerably more or less light depending on the angle of the sun. Usually if the lights are on in a church, 800 is all the faster you'll need.
What ever body and lens you decide to use buy, borrow or rent an exact duplicate to back it up.
Make sure they want black and white or not - some like that traditional look, some don't. If not, get a few rolls of your favorite color negative (Kodak has a new pro 800 color film that I've read good reviews of)
Here's an online wedding photography textbook: http://www.camerahobby.com/WeddingTOC.htm It may give you some ideas.
Oh, if there is a really nice piece of glasswork at the church that gets backlit well by natural light, it can make a really nice backdrop for formal portraits.
Hope this is of some help,
William
FrankS
Registered User
This could go either one of 2 ways. Either everything goes smoothly, you take amazing shots all day long, and discover a new love of photography, or .... not. If you really don't want to do it, don't! If things get messed up, they might not be so understanding afterwards. You have to decide based on knowing these people how they would react if things do not go well. You have a lot to lose and little to gain. Sorry for being negative.
back alley
IMAGES
bill,
first rule for doing a wedding as the 'non pro' is DO NOT DRINK!
think that's funny?
at one of the first 'please do us this favour' weddings i did, the bride's family decided to show their grattitude by making sure i always had a drink handy. there were many fuzzy shots in the album.
i can't remember where i saw it but there is a book about weddings that has many lists in it, from the questions you need to ask the couple, the pastor, to lists of poses that you HAVE TO include.
i'll take a look around here.
weddings can be fun but the pressure can also be intense.
some of my best shooter stories are from wedding shoots though.
joe
first rule for doing a wedding as the 'non pro' is DO NOT DRINK!
think that's funny?
at one of the first 'please do us this favour' weddings i did, the bride's family decided to show their grattitude by making sure i always had a drink handy. there were many fuzzy shots in the album.
i can't remember where i saw it but there is a book about weddings that has many lists in it, from the questions you need to ask the couple, the pastor, to lists of poses that you HAVE TO include.
i'll take a look around here.
weddings can be fun but the pressure can also be intense.
some of my best shooter stories are from wedding shoots though.
joe
back alley
IMAGES
ok, i found it. it's not exactly how i remember it but it's a good book.
it's called 'professional techniques for the wedding photographer.
my copy is like new.
bill, p.m. me your address and i'll send it to you. i hope to never have a need for it again.
joe
it's called 'professional techniques for the wedding photographer.
my copy is like new.
bill, p.m. me your address and i'll send it to you. i hope to never have a need for it again.
joe
FrankS
Registered User
Okay, here's a piece of practical advice if you decide to do this. Keep thing simple. For your first wedding you don't want to get fancy shooting colour and B+W. Keep your primary and backup camera loaded with the same film, at least the same film speed. Do have your backup camera loaded and with or nearby you. If your primary camera goes down while they are walking down the isle, you don't have time to go to the car and load your backup camera at that point.
bmattock
Veteran
mac_wt said:
Wim,
Great advice, thanks! I was planning to have my wife sit for me first so that I can see what the results are like. I also have the luxury of being able to burn a lot of film with various f-stops and so on so that SOMETHING comes out right (LOL!).
I may have to do just as you say, though - time is short on the portraiture they want. I'm a fast learner but not an Overnite Sensation.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
bmattock
Veteran
wlewisiii said:
WIlliam,
Amazing advice and link, thank you! As to the backup lens/bodies, etc. Afraid that one won't work out - I live in a very small town. No camera store, let alone a place to rent pro kit. I'll be using my old Canon FD stuff plus Bessa R stuff. But it is up-to-date maintained and tested and I trust it, and I'll have backup kit in the car for FYI, including flashes and so on. But not identical copies, I'm afraid. I agree it would be a great idea!
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
bmattock
Veteran
FrankS said:
Frank,
I don't think you're being 'negative' at all - I appreciate the advice! I did a lot of soul-searching before I even agreed to TALK about this with them - I am the resident 'gooroo' and I'm getting a lot of airplay lately, but let's face it, I'm a semi-good photographer in a small town with no photographers that anyone knows, so that makes me in demand - but it doesn't make me good.
I *do* want to do it - but I am highly mindful of the possibility of horrible results - angry people - and so on. What I have to gain is the experience and the knowing if I like or don't like this type of work. I'm 43 years old, I'll keep my day job whether this works out or not. But I have a logical and analytical mind, and this kind of thing appeals to me without having done it before. I like being able to plan it in advance, at least to some extent.
If they were not planning to skip the photography altogether without me - then I'd defer and ask them to hire a pro. But without me, they are just going to pass out disposable cameras and have at it. I think I'll *still* ask them to do that, just in case!
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
bmattock
Veteran
FrankS said:
Frank - thanks! OK, I was going to have one body with color and the other with B&W, but what you say makes sense. My wife will be sherpa'ing and will be by my side in the church. I'll make sure she is with me when the critical shots are happening. Maybe my Olympus RC on a strap around my neck with Delta 3200 as well? Just for 'hit and git' photo when all else fails?
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
FrankS
Registered User
Bill, if you can lower their expectations and promise only a few good shots, you will look like a hero at the end of it all, if you can deliver more. But if they think you are a photographic god, they may well be disappointed, and angry. I think the key here is to ascertain just what their expectations are from you.
I do a few wedding each summer and I do find them exciting to do. You may very well love it too.
I do a few wedding each summer and I do find them exciting to do. You may very well love it too.
ddimaria
Well-known
I just went through a similar experience this summer. Don't sweat to much, bring extra film, and you will be fine! Good Luck.
FrankS
Registered User
Bill it is a good idea to cover the really inportant shots (that you have time to) with a second camera, in case one doesn't work an you can't tell. It is also a great idea to have someone do the rounding up to let you focus on the photography. I find it helpful to have the wedding couple assign that task to one of their "outgoing" friends. Sometimes people resent being asked to stop socializing and come and stand for a picture. If the sheepherder is a family freind or relative, they can't get too mad at them.
R
Richard Black
Guest
I'm not a pro so for what it is worth here is my advice. Use the same speed film for all cameras. 400, 800, or whatever your flash units will be adjusted to the same speed. If you have cameras of different speeds it is easy to forget which is which and you could be using the wrong flash setup. I have been in your position on more than one occasion and have had one camera fail. HAVE A BACKUP. Test your equipment before the event! Take a roll with each camera and see if it turns out acceptably. I now have a properly fixed Pentacon 6tl (sorry, not a RF), that I found out after my daughter's wedding had an advance problem. HAVE A BACK UP!
Take some black and white with your rangefinder, they will be pleased. My oldest daughter who ask me to take the pictures is happier with the candid family/guest B&W than the posed photos. Who would guess?
My advise, fwiiw!
Take some black and white with your rangefinder, they will be pleased. My oldest daughter who ask me to take the pictures is happier with the candid family/guest B&W than the posed photos. Who would guess?
My advise, fwiiw!
bmattock
Veteran
FrankS said:
Frank,
That's why I had them over to the house last night. I was quite serious with them about MY shortcomings - no wedding photography experience, what a pro wedding photographer can give them that I can't, and so on. I told them I would give them my 'best effort' and that whatever it ended up being, they'd have to live with it. I emphasized how if I screwed it up, they'd have nothing at all to use for memories in years to come - wouldn't they RATHER hire a pro?
I told them how professional wedding photographers EARN the high fees they charge - they can only work on Saturdays, they still have 'homework' to do in lab and onsite preparing for the shoot, they have to have expensive liability insurance and pay a truckload of assistants and rush lab fees and of couse they have to have very expensive specialized equipment that amortizes over decades while it becomes obsolete in months, AND they need a high-powered FWD vehicle because they CAN'T get lost or stuck in the mud/snow/etc and so on. How other pro photographers can flub some shots (well, not sports or news guys) and come back to it, while wedding photographers have only ONE chance to get it right. I really went into it how a professional wedding photographer earns their fees and why this is a good thing.
Point was in the end - they don't have that kind of money, and they insisted that anything they get beyond a scrapbook from Walmart with some 4x6's in it will thrill them. My wife was my witness to this!
So I think I've set the stage appropriately - but yes, they still kinda have stars in their eyes. They've seen my work - I can look at it and see the flaws, but they think it's incredible. How to deflate this without making them angry or sad?
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
bmattock
Veteran
FrankS said:
What a great idea! I recall now that happened at my wedding - the photog had a buddy of mine running around gathering up people for the outside the church shots. Alternating cameras - great idea! Thanks - very much!
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
bmattock
Veteran
Richard Black said:I'm not a pro so for what it is worth here is my advice. Use the same speed film for all cameras. 400, 800, or whatever your flash units will be adjusted to the same speed. If you have cameras of different speeds it is easy to forget which is which and you could be using the wrong flash setup. I have been in your position on more than one occasion and have had one camera fail. HAVE A BACKUP. Test your equipment before the event! Take a roll with each camera and see if it turns out acceptably. I now have a properly fixed Pentacon 6tl (sorry, not a RF), that I found out after my daughter's wedding had an advance problem. HAVE A BACK UP!
Take some black and white with your rangefinder, they will be pleased. My oldest daughter who ask me to take the pictures is happier with the candid family/guest B&W than the posed photos. Who would guess?
My advise, fwiiw!
Richard,
Good advice, thanks!
Backup - check. Got that covered. I have backups of backups, even.
Test - check. All have been tested within this last week and will be tested again and again.
Same speed film - great idea! None of my cameras have TTL flash, so that's kinda not the same point/solution, but still a good idea - I'll be using a pair of Vivitar 285's and it would be good to have them set the same. Great idea!
As to the rangefinder and B&W - I was planning that, for sure! I may *have* to do that for the shots of the actual ceremony if the minister doesn't want flash photography going on inside.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks