Replace my CLE with a Nikon F4 or F6?

[Huss]

And the above manual is all you need to know why I think the ultimate 35mm cameras are things like the F3, Leica M7, Leica M5, heck I'd even throw the Zeiss Ikon ZM a bone.

 

[Timmyjoe]

Tim.
I'm here for you. I just happen to have my F6 manual by my computer all the time (for when I forget what the ... does). And here is the page (really starts on 144):

Thanks Huss,

I read enough of the manual to figure out how to program all the lenses I have into the camera, but never saw the part about selecting them with the button on the front. That's cool.

Okay, just went in and programed that, now I can quickly change lenses and enter them with that front button. Thanks Huss, I think I like the camera better now. ;-)

Best,
-Tim

 

[PKR]

I personally think the F4 is the best autofocus SLR ever made. It is incredibly rugged and was the first level backup that many combat camera shooters in the US military took into Afghanistan when we began our long protracted field trip to SW Asia. The second backups were personally owned Nikon F2s and Canon F1s. Anyway, you're not being dropped into the high desert of Afghanistan from a C-130 so you don't have to worry about that part but having kids can be just as strenuous as combat for cameras. The F4 can chew it up and spit it right back out as perfect photos. With the ability to use every lens Nikon has ever made with some functionality, the F4 has no equal. I never had any trouble with the autofocus and it was always perfect after I dialed in the proper diopter. That AF is remarkably sensitive under low light. It could focus my 180/2.8 AF ED better than I could in very low light.
I'm not a fan of the F6 because I like real dials, not wheels. That's just me but if the UI works for you, the F6 is an amazing camera as well.

Phil Forrest

In my opinion, Phil is the best camera reviewer on this forum. I've used cameras in some bad environments, all work related. Sand storms, explosions in steel mills (2 of them, years apart). Phil's daily working environment trumps all my experiences.

I've been looking for a film camera replacement for my N90s, that's used for AF studio work. An F4 will be my choice. I'm not an AF fan but, all my digital gear is AF, and it's okay.
I make the necessary corrections, when needed.

 

[stevierose]

Honestly, for an 8 year old here is what I would get:
http://theonlinephotographer.typepa...017/09/so-you-say-you-want-to-shoot-film.html

Ok, so this may be the mother of all bad ideas, but when I was assembling a cheapo set for my 8-year-old to practice with (a $25 N2020 and 50mm), it occurred to me that 1980s AF is not really that bad compared to using a rangefinder. In fact, it's slightly faster.

Then I got to, hey, F4s are really cheap. And not so huge with the MB-20. And then action finder...

But then, I thought hey, I have this CLE and 40 that I just don't use (I like digital Ms better); should I replace the teeny Minolta with an F6? Because, you know, final 35mm camera.

But seriously, my memory is fuzzy on the F4 (it's probably been 10 years since I've owned one) and nonexistent on the F6. How bad/good are these as cameras with a basic 50 or 35-105 IF?

Dante

 

[Phil_F_NM]

In my opinion, Phil is the best camera reviewer on this forum.

Awww shucks. You make me blush.
As much as I pontificate about the F4, it is funny I haven't owned one in years. I had too much GAS for Leica and various medium format (then large format) to get another F4.
When I started shooting on my ship it was with a Nikon 6006. I hated that camera. I got shoot crew qualified and then I got an issue F3. I only got to use an F4 or F5 when we had to call the "Snoopy Team" up to the O-10 level of the carrier.
My personal cameras at the time were Pentax but I saw the advantage of being able to draw lenses from the gear pool if I owned a Nikon. I changed duty stations, sold the Pentax, bought a Contax RX and loved it. Then traded that in for a Contax AX which was the rage then. It lasted 29 days and died the night before I was set to shoot the nurses of Pearl Harbor on the 50th anniversary of the attack. I didn't have a spare body because I sank all my cash into that expensive brick so the job was handed off to another shooter. Two days later I went back to where I bought the AX, the Contax rep was there and asked what he could do to keep my business. I said make a guarantee that will never happen again which he couldn't, so I got a full refund on my gear bought a used F3, used F4s, a suite of lenses from 28mm up to 180mm and had $1600 cash in my pocket.
Until I got the Leica bug those cameras went everywhere with me. Hiking in California, Colorado and New Mexico on leave. Across the country twice on the seat of my car. To Guam in 2003 where the F4 was shooting a concrete pour in the rain immediatly after a tropical storm. Then shooting palm trees being bent down to the ground like reeds in a typhoon. Never had a problem. I wouldn't take my D100 out during those times because I still needed to get shots of the seabees at work and "big Navy" had a fully working photo lab. The F4 just worked and I was skeptical the digital could anchor me to the ground as well in 75kt winds. 😉
When I returned to the states I had to scratch the Leica itch and regretfully sold all that Nikon gear to get an M2, DR Summicron, 28mm Kobalux, and 90mm Elmar. That kit went to Iraq with me and upon arriving there I decided I didn't want to change lenses so I bought an M4 from KEH. Tom and Tuulikki went out of their way to get me an M2 rapidwinder by way of my mother. Amazing people.
I survived Iraq and still have the M4 and Summicron. I had more GAS in the years since with forays into Leica digital as well as other systems here and there. All of it has been replaced with Nikon film bodies and one digital just because it works and has survived the punishment I have given their gear and the punishment that it still takes in the hands of our forward deployed military.
Sorry to derail the thread. F4 or F6 are both winners, really.

Phil Forrest

 

[Huss]

That's really some back ground Phil (and I've really enjoyed your pics).
The problem I have w/ the F6 is my AF module failed. And it was babied. Then others on this site mentioned similar occurrences to theirs. So while the F6 may be the 'ultimate' Nikon F, I don't think it is their ultimate pro film SLR because of this.

 

[Dante_Stella]

And the above manual is all you need to know why I think the ultimate 35mm cameras are things like the F3, Leica M7, Leica M5, heck I'd even throw the Zeiss Ikon ZM a bone.

Do you ever even look at the manual once you've got the camera dialed in? I had a D700 for many years and never really took it off Aperture Priority.

Dante

 

[Huss]

Do you ever even look at the manual once you've got the camera dialed in? I had a D700 for many years and never really took it off Aperture Priority.

Dante

Yes if I pulled the main battery and left it out too long, and so had to reset all my settings.

 

[sanmich]

since we are talking F4's...
Are there serials known not to develop LCD leaks?

 

[p.giannakis]

since we are talking F4's...
Are there serials known not to develop LCD leaks?

Mine has a 23xxxxx serial number and has bleeding LCD (although still perfectly readable). I've seen online one on the 25xxxxx region described as having a bleeding LCD. No updates were done after 25xxxxx so i believe that all will be (eventually) affected.

 

[bhop73]

If it breaks down (I personally have never heard of this happening to anyone I know that has one)

I've had a few F4s over the years. Two have broken down. One of them stopped focusing and the shutter release started lagging to the point it was unusable, the other, well, the shutter blades self destructed, this was on the 2nd roll I put through it. Unfortunately, I got it from an auction with no returns, but I was able to salvage some of the nicer parts to put on a third F4 that I bought after (film door and viewfinder, for example)

So now you've heard of someone with a deceased F4.

To the OP, I've never used an F6, but like using the F4. I prefer the small MB20 grip since it makes it lighter, which means i'm more likely to use the thing. If I were looking for a "fun" camera to shoot with, i'd go F4, but if you want best image quality, i'd go F6 (based on what i've seen/read about its capabilities)

Here's a pic of when I took it apart to see if I could swap out the shutter, since the rest of the camera was mint. It turned out to be beyond my capabilities.

 

[RObert Budding]

I don't think you need extra cash, so I say keep the CLE in the closet.

I'd recommend getting the CLE into the hands of someone who will use it!

 

[minnichphoto]

Bought a F6 about a year ago on whim. Had no reason to buy it as I shot Canon professionally and Leica for most everything film. Took the F6 on an anniversary trip to NYC. I didn't plan on any time to shoot, but wanted a camera for what was in front of me. I figured the F6 was a good choice to break free from the pressure of being in a photo mindset and just enjoy somewhere for fun.

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2740468#post2740468

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2744446#post2744446

https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2743443#post2743443

Upon return, I sold both my Leica and Canon gear and switched to all Nikon. I shoot daily with film with a F6 (F5 backup) and professionally with a 850 (800 backup). There's my endorsement for the F6.

If I were to design an F7, it would aesthetically similar to a DF, with updated af like the 850 and a matching 28mm that is smaller and sturdier than the current 1.8g.

 

[Dante_Stella]

Quick update: I came home from the office last night, and saw the Boy (8) had walked off with the N2020, a 50/1.8, and an SB-20 that were sitting on the dining room table. He had gone to a concert with his sister, mom, and some friends. I also noticed that all of the (remaining) TMY 135 in the house was now sitting on his desk. Because that's what grown-up cameras use.

Apparently he got through an entire roll of film and became quite a hit with 7 to 9 year old girls. That said, my wife reported that when out on his adventure, he also forgot the complex rewind procedure (R1, R2, flip up the crank, rewind) and managed to open the back when trying to erect the rewind crank (which happens if you don't press the two rewind buttons). Looking forward to some negs for viewing the next solar eclipse.

Two steps forward... did Nikon make any SLRs that automatically rewound at the end of a roll? 🙂

In other news, my 5 year old daughter reported that for pictures it was important to have three inputs: film, batteries, and "color for the pictures."

D

 

[Huss]

Two steps forward... did Nikon make any SLRs that automatically rewound at the end of a roll? 🙂

F6 does if you have it set up that way.
F100 too.
Pretty much any Nikon that does not have a manual way to rewind the film.

 

[Huss]

.. but if you want best image quality, i'd go F6 (based on what i've seen/read about its capabilities)

I have noticed zero difference in image quality whether I use a Nikkormat, Nikon EM, F, F2, F3 or F6.

 

[RObert Budding]

F6 does if you have it set up that way.
F100 too.
Pretty much any Nikon that does not have a manual way to rewind the film.

The Nikon F100 can be set to rewind at the end of the roll. Fantastic camera, and a reasonable size for 'the boy'.

 

[HHPhoto]

Ok, so this may be the mother of all bad ideas, but when I was assembling a cheapo set for my 8-year-old to practice with (a $25 N2020 and 50mm), it occurred to me that 1980s AF is not really that bad compared to using a rangefinder. In fact, it's slightly faster.

Then I got to, hey, F4s are really cheap. And not so huge with the MB-20. And then action finder...

But then, I thought hey, I have this CLE and 40 that I just don't use (I like digital Ms better); should I replace the teeny Minolta with an F6? Because, you know, final 35mm camera.

But seriously, my memory is fuzzy on the F4 (it's probably been 10 years since I've owned one) and nonexistent on the F6. How bad/good are these as cameras with a basic 50 or 35-105 IF?

Dante

Hi Dante,

I have both a F4 and a F6. Therefore I have the direct comparison.
The F4 was the best 35mm SLR when it was introduced 1988.
But time and technology have much moved forward since that time.
So the in 2004 introduced F6 is much much better in every aspect:
- better construction (e.g. much better dampend shutter and mirror, much more silent operation)
- much advanced features (i-TTL and CLS flash system, self-diagnostic shutter, VR compatibility, data (EXIF) recording, better exposure and AF systems, built-in data-back, lots of individual custom functions and so on)
- much better ergonomics.

So your CLE is unused, only sitting in the cupborad collecting dust. It is "dead capital" for you. Give this camera instead to someone who is using it. Cameras are made to take photographs.

With a (brand new) F6 you will have a camera for the next 35-40 years. Probably for "the rest of your life". It's a "once in a lifetime" purchase. Therefore even a brand new one is very cheap. I recommended using it with the excellent vertical grip MB-40.
Go for the F6. You won't regret it.

Cheers, Jan

 

[Dante_Stella]

So the exciting conclusion:

- The boy has bonded with the N2020 and 50/1.8D. And somewhat troublingly for my retinas, the SB-20.

- As the "shoot along for Dad," I picked up an essentially new late F4 (small MB-20 version) from Japan (with a rare P screen and SB-24, all $165 before shipping) and mated it to the 50/1.4D and 28-105D (which were absurdly cheap in a lot I bought).

We'll see what happens with the CLE. As to the F6 vs F4 debate, it came down to this:

- I found the control ergonomics in my D700 somewhat miserable to use in conjunction with Leicas when every other camera had a shutter speed via dial (if you shot only a D700, it's fine). And where film cameras can't fall back on Auto ISO, controls are more of a worry.

- On reflection, off-center focusing capability on my D700 was a big selling point (and is a big one for the F6), but in real life, it was complicated to set for off-center subjects, and when it was allowed to choose, often picked the wrong thing to focus on. As much as people like to rag on early Nikon AF, in some ways - like accuracy at the film plane when you have a focus-able subject - it's no better today than when it started. The F4's focus is extremely sensitive and so long as you are conscious of subject contrast, it is fine. It's as least as good as any human can do with a rangefinder camera (given similar limitations between humans and CCDs on what can be focused...).

- Viewfinder. Not a small consideration is that if you like manual focusing, you can go to town reframing old F3 screens into the mounts from trashed F4 B screens. Which means that in addition to F4 native screens, you can get D (straight, real groundglass) for telephotos, H (all-over microprisms), and other fun stuff. I've already been at work with a JIS screwdriver...

- Lenses. You can take your pick of clapped-out 10.5/2.5s, etc. without modifying the lens or camera to mount them.

- Not looking like a DSLR. The F4 looks retro, like a pro camera from the 80s - because it is.

- Also, the capital investment is a lot smaller.

Now the real issue is avoiding a backslide into buying another 105/2 AF-DC!

Dante

 

[Phil_F_NM]

I want another F4s. :::sigh:::
Life is pretty good with an FA though.

Phil Forrest