Grumblepunk
Greenhorn
Saw this on photo.net. Though I'm not normally one to keep the flames burning, so far the conversation is civil and decidedly resigned to the issue.
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00CTjD
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00CTjD
Kipling Phillips said:
laptoprob
back to basics
If the current Leica company will not continue, I am sure others will. CV, ZI and who knows else. The fact ZI just launched their M series shows their confidence.
Besides, Leica's are like Volvo's, they never die.
No worries!
Rob.
Besides, Leica's are like Volvo's, they never die.
No worries!
Rob.
phototone
Well-known
Perhaps the M7 will die. If I recall correctly, it has been stated by Leica that the Digital "M" would require a vertical travel metal shutter, such as in the R8, R9, and of course in the new ZI and VC Rfdr's, and the Epson. Thus, the traditional cloth focal plane shutter would only still be used in the current "M" models.
IF there is a Digital "M" camera, then it would be logical to also produce a film "M" mount camera based on the same shutter configuration as the Digital body. This is just like Nikon is doing with the F6 film camera, and their pro digital bodys. Therefore the current "M" cameras would be discontinued for economical reasons, except for the Al-A-Carte system, which could use up all the spare parts. This is logical to rationalize the manufacturing line and allow them to produce reasonable quantities of cameras out of a relatively small facility, keeping their overhead low.
I don't see Leica abandoning film cameras, though.
IF there is a Digital "M" camera, then it would be logical to also produce a film "M" mount camera based on the same shutter configuration as the Digital body. This is just like Nikon is doing with the F6 film camera, and their pro digital bodys. Therefore the current "M" cameras would be discontinued for economical reasons, except for the Al-A-Carte system, which could use up all the spare parts. This is logical to rationalize the manufacturing line and allow them to produce reasonable quantities of cameras out of a relatively small facility, keeping their overhead low.
I don't see Leica abandoning film cameras, though.
Grumblepunk
Greenhorn
I want to see Leica continue for the same reason I want to see any Grandfather's-era institution continue. For me, it's simply the history. I feel it a shame that other companies are able to so easily wither the competition by simply making products that are 'almost' as good, easier for the novice and cheaper.
This marketing strat is not just damaging to photography, but everything that humans endeavour to accomplish. By making life easier, we make it cheaper. And by cheaper I don't mean more cost effective.
As for the M bodies, Leica is the only camera company that I know of that has a body style and gear list stretching back half a century. I can use a good portion of M7 internals to repair my M2. Try that with an F5 and an F1.
Would anyone turn down a cherry 1965 Mustang simply because Ford stopped making them?
This marketing strat is not just damaging to photography, but everything that humans endeavour to accomplish. By making life easier, we make it cheaper. And by cheaper I don't mean more cost effective.
As for the M bodies, Leica is the only camera company that I know of that has a body style and gear list stretching back half a century. I can use a good portion of M7 internals to repair my M2. Try that with an F5 and an F1.
Would anyone turn down a cherry 1965 Mustang simply because Ford stopped making them?
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Yeah- like the M4 "died"
Little Prince
Well-known
Phototone, wouldn't a vertical travel cloth shutter be possible? I mean, what is the critical issue, the material (metal/cloth) or the configuration (horiz/vert)?
phototone
Well-known
Little Prince said:
There is not a single digital camera that has a cloth shutter, vertical or otherwise.
Anyway, it is not my words, it is Leica's words that state that the future Digital "M" will have a metal vertical shutter similar to the Leica R8 and R9 SLR cameras. I believe that I read this on Leica's own website in an inverview with the new CEO.
It is my thought progression to assume that any future "M" mount Leica for film would be derived from the same platform as the future Digital "M". Therefore also having a metal vertical running shutter. This is exactly what Nikon has done with their current pro-level film camera the Nikon F6, which is based on the Nikon D2x digital camera mechanism. Lots of parts interchangeability.
sgy1962
Well-known
Within the year or so, film M = a la carte. By this time, a digital M will be on the near horizon.
R
RubenBlaedel
Guest
Grumblepunk said:
I think that Hasselblad made the 50 years with the 500C/500CM/501C/501CM 503CM
and The SW/SWC/SWCM/903/905SWCM
But only just - they are closing down production on almost all film cameras
cp_ste.croix
At the beginning again.
i better get mine soon then....darn out of funds recovering student status...
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Believe all that you read on photo.nerd and you'll believe anything.
Yes, it's possible. But is it likely? Hardly. What is Leica best known for? So destroy your flagship...
And although the pitiable weakness of the US dollar (a statement of verifiable fact, not US bashing) is hurting US sales at the moment, there's hope even in that market if the dollar recovers from the current $1.25 or so to the under $0.93 (to the euro) that obtained in Clinton's day.
Cheers,
Roger
Yes, it's possible. But is it likely? Hardly. What is Leica best known for? So destroy your flagship...
And although the pitiable weakness of the US dollar (a statement of verifiable fact, not US bashing) is hurting US sales at the moment, there's hope even in that market if the dollar recovers from the current $1.25 or so to the under $0.93 (to the euro) that obtained in Clinton's day.
Cheers,
Roger
phototone
Well-known
OK, so we know that Leica is going to release (eventually) a digital RFDR camera with an "M" mount.
This camera will have to be substantially different inside from a shutter standpoint (Leica's words) than the current cloth focal plane shutter mechanism due to the requirements of the imager chip.
Why would they continue to make a totally incompatible (from a parts standpoint) film "M" mount camera as a standard production item for such a limited "botique" market? A market that could be served by the a la carte program.
It makes sense to offer a film "M" mount camera based on the non-digital parts of the Digital "M" camera, thus rationalizing production costs and keeping the remaining film "M" mount camera cost within reason.
The possible discontinuance of the current M7 should not be seen as the demise of a film based M mount camera from Leica, although it is perhaps the last cloth focal plane shutter one.
This camera will have to be substantially different inside from a shutter standpoint (Leica's words) than the current cloth focal plane shutter mechanism due to the requirements of the imager chip.
Why would they continue to make a totally incompatible (from a parts standpoint) film "M" mount camera as a standard production item for such a limited "botique" market? A market that could be served by the a la carte program.
It makes sense to offer a film "M" mount camera based on the non-digital parts of the Digital "M" camera, thus rationalizing production costs and keeping the remaining film "M" mount camera cost within reason.
The possible discontinuance of the current M7 should not be seen as the demise of a film based M mount camera from Leica, although it is perhaps the last cloth focal plane shutter one.
thpook
Squawkbox Delux
Little Prince said:
If I remember correctly, the Leica CL is vertical travel. I sold mine about a year ago, otherwise I'd check.
taffer
void
Certainly.
Brian, you have my vote for Kodak's president !
A full frame digital CL, now that would be GREAT.
Brian, you have my vote for Kodak's president !
A full frame digital CL, now that would be GREAT.
Uncle Bill
Well-known
So is this incentive for me to serious damage to my Visa Card? As much as I love my Leica M3 and I will be buying other used bodies M2, M4(-2/P) or M6 in the future. I am no fan of Leica's business plan at all, you can thank the influence of Hermes on that one, I would be kind of curious to walk through their warehouse beside the plant and see the unsold cameras gathering dust and shake my head. The sad thing is if I want a NEW M bayonet camera I am looking at CV Bessa R2a, I just do not have the cash to hit the A La Carte program.
Bill
Bill
Bill
Bill
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
It is a matter of perception. You and I may perceive Leica to be more value for the money but the vast majority think Canon/Nikon DSLRs are more value for their money.
Bob
Bob
Turtle
Veteran
I think neither are value for money!
S
sychan
Guest
If the tool gets the job done and is an important part of generating revenue, then people will pay for it. If you are getting paid a few thousand dollars per day as a working, successful photographer, $8k for one of your most fundamental peices of equipment is a reasonable business expense.
To put it into perspective, how many people who depend on cars for their work eat $8k worth of depreciation on their cars over 2 years?
Its very different if you're just a hobbyist who likes to take pictures of friends and family. But even so, you have people who buy sport utility vehicles for tens of thousands of dollars, when a minivan or station wagon will easily fulfill their requirements.
Steve
To put it into perspective, how many people who depend on cars for their work eat $8k worth of depreciation on their cars over 2 years?
Its very different if you're just a hobbyist who likes to take pictures of friends and family. But even so, you have people who buy sport utility vehicles for tens of thousands of dollars, when a minivan or station wagon will easily fulfill their requirements.
Steve
Nikon Bob said:
Bertram2
Gone elsewhere
Grumblepunk said:
The M line is the only worthful asset they still own . It sounds a bit like an attempt to get their market run for reducing their idiotic 42 Mio Euro of stock ware.
If it were true it would mean they will make (M) lenses only in future which could be a business plan indeed.
Zeiss, Cosina or any other company won't neither buy Leica not continue the production. It would make absolutely no sense. Leica is ruined by an incompetent management and the bets are 9:1 that it is dead.
Bertram
Ben Z
Veteran
I can only speak from my personal experience. I'm an amateur and an LHSA member who enjoys the history and pedigree of the Leica as well as the images it produces. However I can't see the value in the difference between the cost of new Leica stuff as opposed to used stuff . If it were even twice as much, but in many cases now it's 3-5 times. And that's totally ignoring the whole subject of digital. I don't have an answer for what ails Leica, but I can't see how huge price increases on items that are already selling poorly can help. It would not surprise me if Leica produced the M stuff as special-order-only in the near future. Many smalller dealers have been selling it that way de-facto for quite a while. It would be disappointing and probably counterproductive if they actuallly discontinuned the M line before a digital M was available. But Leica discontinued the M line after the M5 failed to sell, and then revived it a few years later and it's stayed revived for almost 30 more years. However there was no digital to figure in then.