reusing d76 question

[fidget]

I regularly use ID11 (same as D76?) at 1:1 and reuse in the same session. A typical run might use 500 ml for 2 x 120 (different films in separate tanks, or two of the same on the same spool) then a 135 film. Another mix is 600ml for 2 x 135 followed by 2 x 120). I have not yet changed times for any film. So I guess that the highest rate of reuse is 2 (300ml of 1:1 for each 135 and 120 pair).

PS, it's a little more expensive here.

 

[SolaresLarrave]

Ampguy, the best way to reduce exposure to chemicals is keeping them away from the reach of pets and kids, wearing gloves when you process film, and washing your work area thoroughly after developing your stuff. I wouldn't reuse D-76, not just for economical reasons but rather quality. However, I reuse fixer until it fails the film strip test (in which you sink a clip of film into the fixer to see how long it takes to clear).

I've been following your experiments with C-41 and find them amusing, daring and interesting, by the way. Keep trying those things and letting us know. Take care!

EDIT: maybe you want to try Ilford Rapid Fixer. It goes 1:4 with water, no need to mix powder and water or anything, and has a very nice, long shelf life.

 

[oscroft]

Last question - I mix my Kodak fixer 1:1 from the stock made from powder, so it is going to weaken the stock by pouring it back, of course I can test it every developing session, but did I mis-read something, or do folks use the fixer stock straight?

I use Tetenal liquid concentrate rapid fixer, which is diluted 1+4 for use. So I make up a 1.5 litre bottle of it at a time, then use whatever I need and pour it back into that bottle when done (not back into the concentrate). I find that amount will do me for about 20 rolls, so I start testing when it gets near 15 (and I usually do 2 or 3 rolls at a time). If the portion I've just used won't clear a cut-off film leader in 2 mins (half my usual fixing time - I think 40 secs is excessive) then it goes down the drain rather than back in the bottle.

So, if I was using your stock fixer made from powder, I'd dilute some at 1:1 for use, then keep pouring it back into that bottle, not back into the stock bottle.

 

[ampguy]

Thanks all for the great info. and answers. I think I will continue to use the fixer at 1:1, but on my next developing, see how many seconds the 1:1 mix takes to clear a snippet.

Now on this "snippet", I plan to cut about 1/4" in the dark off where the film comes off of the plastic roller and is usually rough, but there is usually close to an inch before the last frame on the roll.

The leader would not work, I think, because a) it is exposed when loaded, and b) I like keeping it on with ss reels, because if beginning of roll is cut flat, highly curled film, especially 36/38 exp. films can touch the next inner circle, while a leader will have less tension and be less likely to touch the next inner roll of frames.

When I develop with the kids, the loading is the long part, we invariably roll and re-roll, and realize that 1 of the 4 rolls we do is likely going to be mis-rolled and touching causing a few bad frames, so we try to take a lot of photos of the Kitty to minimize the chances of the one-in-a-lifetime photos being on the roll...

Also, during the film loading, invariably someone farts and denies it (the kids of course), so it's essential that the bathroom fan stays on...

 

[tmfabian]

Thanks all for the great info. and answers. I think I will continue to use the fixer at 1:1, but on my next developing, see how many seconds the 1:1 mix takes to clear a snippet.

Now on this "snippet", I plan to cut about 1/4" in the dark off where the film comes off of the plastic roller and is usually rough, but there is usually close to an inch before the last frame on the roll.

The leader would not work, I think, because a) it is exposed when loaded, and b) I like keeping it on with ss reels, because if beginning of roll is cut flat, highly curled film, especially 36/38 exp. films can touch the next inner circle, while a leader will have less tension and be less likely to touch the next inner roll of frames.

You can use any piece of undeveloped film to test fixer...even if it's exposed to light, so long as it hasn't been through the developer. Fixer fixes developed silver and removes UNDEVELOPED silver halides from the film not unexposed.

 

[oscroft]

The leader would not work, I think, because a) it is exposed when loaded,

The leader works fine - if it hasn't been developed, it clears in fixer just the same as unexposed film.

But a very small piece cut from the other end of the film would do just as well - it only has to be big enough for you to see when it has cleared.

 

[ampguy]

please define "cleared"

please define "cleared"

does this mean transluscent non-opaque?

Because my fixer with new stock 1:1 doesn't clear undeveloped C41 (at least not in 12 minutes), but does make the dark side whitish.

This is kodak fixer/hardener, not rapid fixer.

Perhaps I am developing in fixer, and fixing in developer

The leader works fine - if it hasn't been developed, it clears in fixer just the same as unexposed film.

But a very small piece cut from the other end of the film would do just as well - it only has to be big enough for you to see when it has cleared.

 

[oscroft]

does this mean transluscent non-opaque?

Yep - transparent, see-through.

Because my fixer with new stock 1:1 doesn't clear undeveloped C41 (at least not in 12 minutes), but does make the dark side whitish.

I wouldn't like to try and guess what it does to undeveloped colour film - you really need to test it with B&W film.

This is kodak fixer/hardener, not rapid fixer

If it's not rapid fixer, your fixing time will of course be longer - how long do you normally fix for? I only use rapid fixer and haven't used the slow stuff for years - it's so long ago I can't remember how I used to use it, but I'd still expect fresh fixer to clear a piece of undeveloped B&W film in about half your usual fixing time.

 

[ampguy]

Thanks

Thanks

I'll try today with a snippet from some neopan 100ss. I usually fix for about 5 minutes with the Kodak regular powder fixer mixed to 1 gallon, then used 1:1.

Yep - transparent, see-through.


I wouldn't like to try and guess what it does to undeveloped colour film - you really need to test it with B&W film.


If it's not rapid fixer, your fixing time will of course be longer - how long do you normally fix for? I only use rapid fixer and haven't used the slow stuff for years - it's so long ago I can't remember how I used to use it, but I'd still expect fresh fixer to clear a piece of undeveloped B&W film in about half your usual fixing time.

 

[drewbarb]

Five minutes sounds pretty short for a regular (non-rapid) fix. I use a rapid fix (with hardener) and I need times of 5 to 6 minutes to fully fix film. With regular fix, I imagine it should take longer.

The standard practice is to establish the minimum amount of time it takes to clear the film (till it's transparent, though still a little pink or purple), triple that, then round up. So if it takes 40 seconds to clear, you should fix for at least two minutes plus- most folks will use three or more. Many modern film bases require an additional minute or two to fully clear- which puts us in the 5 to 6 minute territory most of us use these days- and again, that's with a rapid fix.

I think the extra time required started with Kodak T-Max films, but has since spread to virtually all Kodak films, plus Ilford Delta films and many from other manufacturers. I have noticed for instance that Fuji 100 SS needs around 6 minutes, and even then is still very pink, and needs a little extra wash time, even with a Perma-Wash step.

I can't comment on how C41 film should behave in regular b&w fix- it's formulated for a bleach-fix, and I've never tried the cross processing you are doing (though I've followed with some interest...). But certainly you can check your fix with any piece of undeveloped b&w film, whether clipped from the leader or elsewhere. The amount of exposure it's seen doesn't matter at all- only that it's undeveloped.

Anyway, good luck, have fun; and keep us posted on the results of your C41 in b&w chemistry experiments.

 

[oscroft]

I have vague memories from decades ago when I used to make up fixer from sodium thiosulphate crystals (today's rapid fixers are ammonium thiosulphate), and I'm sure it used to take about 20 minutes to fix properly.

 

[ampguy]

Thanks Drew and Alan,

It probably wouldn't hurt to fix longer, and I will try some b/w film in the fixer tonight or this weekend.

Here are a few more sets of scans, these are from 2 developing sessions ago, where I did 4 rolls in 2 tanks (reusing the developer and adding a couple of minutes to the 2nd session, with the d76 straight (which oddly yielded 1 roll from the first batch very high contrast, also note that one of the rolls in the 2nd session was not Reala 100, but Walgreens Agfa 200. The high contrast hexar af roll is: here, but not the other 3):

here

and here

and here

 

[ampguy]

fix times for neopan 100ss

fix times for neopan 100ss

kodak powder fixer made to 1 gal., diluted 1:1 about 2 minutes to transparent (still a magenta cast), straight stock about 40 seconds to same transparent magenta. Volume was about 50ml. film strip size about 100mm squared. 68 deg. F. random swirling.

I'll try today with a snippet from some neopan 100ss. I usually fix for about 5 minutes with the Kodak regular powder fixer mixed to 1 gallon, then used 1:1.

 

[oscroft]

kodak powder fixer made to 1 gal., diluted 1:1 about 2 minutes to transparent (still a magenta cast), straight stock about 40 seconds to same transparent magenta. Volume was about 50ml. film strip size about 100mm squared. 68 deg. F. random swirling

That's interesting, and not much different to my rapid fixer - diluted to working strength that takes around a minute to clear when it's freshly made and, as I say, I keep using it until it slows down as far as about 2 mins (giving my films about 4-5 mins of fixing).

The magenta is no problem, btw - when you're actually processing films, some of it will come out in the developer, and more in the wash. (People who use modern minimal washing often get a leftover magenta/purple tinge to their negs even when they're finished, especially with Tri-X, but it's no problem. I still tend to wash the old fashioned way, and I get all of the magenta out).

 

[ampguy]

neopan 100ss

neopan 100ss

You do know this is a chromogenic b/w film right? The developer and fixer come out clear when draining, even with some long fixed for ~ 8 minutes.

That's interesting, and not much different to my rapid fixer - diluted to working strength that takes around a minute to clear when it's freshly made and, as I say, I keep using it until it slows down as far as about 2 mins (giving my films about 4-5 mins of fixing).

The magenta is no problem, btw - when you're actually processing films, some of it will come out in the developer, and more in the wash. (People who use modern minimal washing often get a leftover magenta/purple tinge to their negs even when they're finished, especially with Tri-X, but it's no problem. I still tend to wash the old fashioned way, and I get all of the magenta out).

 

[ampguy]

trying to re-create the high contrast overdeveloped ferry type photos here

with 2 minutes pre-wash, d76 1:1 for 12 minutes at 70.

Might try the D76 straight again.

 

[oscroft]

You do know this is a chromogenic b/w film right?

Neopan 100ss is chromogenic? Surely not.

 

[ampguy]

sorry, you're right

sorry, you're right

Was thinking of the ...CN B&W films, this 100ss is Orthopanchromatic, with a triacetate tinted base.

Neopan 100ss is chromogenic? Surely not.