Reverse engineering: Hope for the future of electronic film cameras

[aizan]

Let's try to be more positive when it comes to repairing electronic film cameras. We've become too fatalistic about it, accepting their "inevitable" demise without so much as a fight. Don't give up!

We're so pessimistic about the repairability of electronic film cameras (ones with printed circuit boards, not ones that are simply metered), a lot of people forget or are ignorant of the fact that many problems such as bad capacitors, dirty contacts, and rust can be easily fixed. Also, some parts may be standardized, and they can be replaced without setting up custom manufacturing.

The hard part is replacing PCBs and other custom components like integrated circuits, LCDs, and flex cables. These can all be reverse engineered. There would be legal and financial hurdles to sort out, but technically you could make replacement parts.

It might mean that only a handful of classics will be supported in the future, but it's at least possible!

 

[Deleted member 65559]

Good thought, but for some of us, what is possible is meaningless if it can't be done in a reasonable turn around time at a reasonable cost....

 

[Skiff]

Let's try to be more positive when it comes to repairing electronic film cameras. We've become too fatalistic about it, accepting their "inevitable" demise without so much as a fight. Don't give up!

We're so pessimistic about the repairability of electronic film cameras (ones with printed circuit boards, not ones that are simply metered), a lot of people forget or are ignorant of the fact that many problems such as bad capacitors, dirty contacts, and rust can be easily fixed. Also, some parts may be standardized, and they can be replaced without setting up custom manufacturing.

+1.
Most electronic defects are rather small defects which can be repaired easily - if you have the knowledge.
In general electronics are more durable than mechanics in the long term because there is no wearout / attrition as it is in mechanics.

Currently most of the older repair guys are "mechanic fundamentalists" 😉 who don't want to start to learn about electronics.
But younger technicians want to do that. Camera Rescue in Tampere just have hired a young electronic specialists to extend their repair capacities for electronic cameras.
In England there is a 22 year old genius who is repairing defect Contax T2.

Electronic parts are also often not the problem. E.g. in China (Shanghai, Bejing, Shenzen) there are really huge electronic parts supermarkets where you can buy absolutely everything whats needed in electronic hardware. At extremely low prices.

 

[retinax]

Yes, a lot of electronics issues can be fixed, especially the older cameras with discrete electronics, which don't require any reverse engineering really. The problem is usually cost. Finding a fault in discrete electronics can be hard enough, reverse engineering entire circuit boards is prohibitively expensive for the small numbers we'd be talking about. I don't think it'll happen on any scale larger than individual afficinado's labor of love.

 

[Steve M.]

I'm not going to try and repair a fidgety electronic camera that can be replaced for 30 bucks. It just isn't in the cards. In the trash heap it goes, and on w/ the replacement, and lest someone moans about landfills and the like, keep in mind that all things in the universe are impermanent, and all things, every single one of them, eventually go back to the earth, air or water.

 

[Darthfeeble]

I'm not going to try and repair a fidgety electronic camera that can be replaced for 30 bucks. It just isn't in the cards. In the trash heap it goes, and on w/ the replacement, and lest someone moans about landfills and the like, keep in mind that all things in the universe are impermanent, and all things, every single one of them, eventually go back to the earth, air or water.

Besides, the economy needs us. Planned obsolescence is part of a healthy economy. What's good for business is good for (insert your country).

 

[splitimageview]

I'm not going to try and repair a fidgety electronic camera that can be replaced for 30 bucks. It just isn't in the cards. In the trash heap it goes, and on w/ the replacement, and lest someone moans about landfills and the like, keep in mind that all things in the universe are impermanent, and all things, every single one of them, eventually go back to the earth, air or water.

Well sure, a $30 item doesn’t really apply here though.

 

[michaelwj]

...and lest someone moans about landfills and the like, keep in mind that all things in the universe are impermanent, and all things, every single one of them, eventually go back to the earth, air or water.

That is one of the most short sighted and selfish things I’ve heard in a while. Sure, throw it out, eventually it will decay. Eventually. Like in 100,000 years. Who gives a rats arse how much damage it does along the way. A single plastic bag could kill hundreds of marine animals on it way back to earth, but who cares right. Who cares that your electronic waste concentrates toxic elements in ways that are never found on the surface of the earth. It’s not my problem. I can’t see it.
A broken $30 electronic camera does just as much environmental harm as a broken $2000 electronic camera. If you can’t be bothered fixing it, at least make an effort to recycle it.

 

[michaelwj]

Back to the OPs topic.
The reason they aren’t repaired isn’t because they can’t be. Like Steve M said, it just isn’t economical to. No one is going to pay me for however long it takes to debug the electronic problem and then maybe fix it. Western wages are too high for that. Some places have tried to get a repairing mentality back through tax incentives (like no tax on repairs for example), but it doesn’t go far enough. In places where wages are much lower “low cost” electronics are repaired.

 

[michaelwj]

Well sure, a $30 item doesn’t really apply here though.

If your wage for the month was $30 (as opposed to your wage for 30 minutes), then you would get the $30 item repaired.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

$30 an hour?
Holly crap, in Canuckistan it is high wages!

 

[BernardL]

The hard part is replacing PCBs and other custom components like integrated circuits, LCDs, and ribbon cables.These can all be reverse engineered.

So you have this P&S that appears to be brain-dead, or just acts funny. Open it (try not break those latches that were designed to snap shut once for all) and you discover this tiny ASIC (application specific integrated circuit, i.e. custom IC) "brain". Then what?

Or, what I have on my table, this nice Konica Big Mini. The flex harness between main body and back (display, buttons) has broken where it goes around the hinge. Sure, I have already repaired a flex circuit in my Nikon scanner, only it was in a flat section; here it is in a tight bend.

Could you give us one or two examples of repair and/or reverse engineering you have actually performed, as opposed to what the NSA might in principle be able to do?

 

[Kai-san]

I far as I'm able to see the OP did not say that all cameras can be repaired, and indeed some of the plastic fantastics of the 70's and 80's are best forgotten. But as Michael says; do not let them end up in a landfill. The "economy needs us" argument is not much worth if our planet is poisoned. I agree with the OP that many failures are due to dirty / bad contacts and are easy to fix. To make new electronic circuitry to fit in the most popular cameras could be done, the price will certainly depend on production quantities. Some companies like Mint are already fitting old cameras with new advanced electronics and putting them on the market.
But there could be simpler ways to make these cameras work. I have a few very nice Konicas from the sixties in a drawer, and I've been wondering if they could be turned into manual cameras. A simple circuit to control the electronic shutters manually would suffice for me if I could start using those cameras again.

 

[Out to Lunch]

I suppose also a cultural issue...throw whatever doesn't work. In Vietnam, there are still very many repairmen who will try to repair whatever camera you'll bring in. They seem to be well connected and able to source parts locally, both mechanical and electronic.

 

[olifaunt]

Even (quality) P&S cameras from the 90s sell for well over a grand now, and will only appreciate as time wears on, so getting one repaired for $100 or even $200 could be well worth it, compared to buying another one - that's probably their appreciation in value on Ebay in a month 😉

 

[DominikDUK]

I think it's less of a money problem than many people think electronics are cheap at least cheaper than high quality mechanical parts. It's just that problems in the IC can't be seen by simply opening the camera and therefore people are overwhelmed and can't conceive how to repair the electronic parts. It's not much different in the cine world where cameras cost quiet a bit more than still cameras the CP16r or CP GSMO are two such examples they are considered throw away items because the circuits "can't be repaired" once they have a defect. The Arri 365BL1 is another such example in both cases it's BS pretty much all all electronic components made in the 70's are still around the main problem is the lead solder but again there are ways around it.

 

[ptpdprinter]

The hard part is replacing PCBs and other custom components like integrated circuits, LCDs, and ribbon cables. These can all be reverse engineered. There would be legal and financial hurdles to sort out, but technically you could make replacement parts.

As a technical matter you can; as a practical matter you can't.

 

[retinax]

I think it's less of a money problem than many people think electronics are cheap at least cheaper than high quality mechanical parts. It's just that problems in the IC can't be seen by simply opening the camera and therefore people are overwhelmed and can't conceive how to repair the electronic parts. It's not much different in the cine world where cameras cost quiet a bit more than still cameras the CP16r or CP GSMO are two such examples they are considered throw away items because the circuits "can't be repaired" once they have a defect. The Arri 365BL1 is another such example in both cases it's BS pretty much all all electronic components made in the 70's are still around the main problem is the lead solder but again there are ways around it.

The problem of cost isn't because of the parts, it's the labor. Or if we're talking about reverse engineering whole boards in small series, the labor that goes into these parts. LCDs etc, the tooling would be prohibitively expensive I think.

 

[DominikDUK]

Again to repair an electronic part isn't more expensive or time consuming than a technical part. IC designed in the 70's are still available, you need Knowledge in electronics that's it but as a previous poster wrote most repair techs are not very knowledgeable about that part of camera repair.

 

[ptpdprinter]

Again to repair an electronic part isn't more expensive or time consuming than a technical part. IC designed in the 70's are still available, you need Knowledge in electronics that's it but as a previous poster wrote most repair techs are not very knowledgeable about that part of camera repair.

How many custom ribbon circuits for cameras have you fabricated? Just wondering how much of this is theory rather than practice? My own experience working on non-camera ribbon circuits is that they are a nightmare.