wolves3012
Veteran
Actually, the reality is that many such cameras cannot be repaired without deep pockets and access to re-manufacturing. Despite what the OP thinks, huge swathes of '70s electronic parts are no longer available, both analogue and digital. In addition, there are circuits where the manufacturer used unmarked ICs and then there are flexible circuit boards that simply cannot be re-soldered with a soldering iron because they melt. Custom LCDs would also be insanely expensive.
Yes, it's possible to fix anything if you have the resources but in the real world those resources are simply not available, certainly not in an economically-sensible way.
Lead-based solder is a non-issue, I'm wondering why anyone thinks otherwise?
Yes, it's possible to fix anything if you have the resources but in the real world those resources are simply not available, certainly not in an economically-sensible way.
Lead-based solder is a non-issue, I'm wondering why anyone thinks otherwise?
joe bosak
Well-known
Reverse engineering: Hope for the future of electronic film cameras
I thought the issue was actually caused by the introduction of non-lead solder, where initially products suffered solder cracks which led to them having to be replaced early ( becuase non-lead solder is more brittle). Allegedly an issue with a lot consumer electronics, just as presumably the capacitory plague had been. Either way, by now a non-issue as anything likely to fail for that reason almost certainly has already.
I thought the issue was actually caused by the introduction of non-lead solder, where initially products suffered solder cracks which led to them having to be replaced early ( becuase non-lead solder is more brittle). Allegedly an issue with a lot consumer electronics, just as presumably the capacitory plague had been. Either way, by now a non-issue as anything likely to fail for that reason almost certainly has already.
JeffS7444
Well-known
Being able to repair things is important of course, but even better is not allowing things to deteriorate so badly in the first place! Look at manufacturer's literature for many electronic components and you'll sometimes see MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure) and other environmental data. And in general, electronics last longest if kept under conditions which are dry, not too hot, and not too cold. To which I'll add "and clean / dust-free".
aizan
Veteran
There are a couple themes in this discussion I should elaborate on.
First, there's the cost that people assume is "prohibitively" expensive. Does anyone know how much it costs to reverse engineer something like the PCB inside a Contax T3 or Konica Hexar AF? How much money are we talking about? There are specialized labs all over the place (SunMan in San Jose, Sigenics in Chicago, ENA in Canada, LTEC in Japan) that offer reverse engineering services. Some types of parts like ICs will be more expensive, others will be less expensive. Some might actually be impractical to recreate. (ASICs have traditionally been one of the hardest, but AFAIK they are only used in digital cameras to process sensor output.) But you have to consider the type of business that's trying to replicate parts. A big camera service center with multiple employees will be able to do more than a single independent repairman; they could even make licensing agreements with camera companies to get the original specs of parts. Obviously, it's not prohibitively expensive for many industries because these labs and services exist. Is the film photography community and camera repair industry too poor to afford it?
Second, there's the environmental and political aspect. I support the Right to Repair movement. It's my property, I should be allowed to fix it and not have to throw it away or have it repaired only by the manufacturer. If they run out of spare parts after the 10 years they're legally obligated to provide service for, I should be permitted to make new parts. Maybe people don't like electronic film cameras enough to bother, but that's just a matter of preferring all mechanical cameras. How would preferences change if they were both equally repairable?
First, there's the cost that people assume is "prohibitively" expensive. Does anyone know how much it costs to reverse engineer something like the PCB inside a Contax T3 or Konica Hexar AF? How much money are we talking about? There are specialized labs all over the place (SunMan in San Jose, Sigenics in Chicago, ENA in Canada, LTEC in Japan) that offer reverse engineering services. Some types of parts like ICs will be more expensive, others will be less expensive. Some might actually be impractical to recreate. (ASICs have traditionally been one of the hardest, but AFAIK they are only used in digital cameras to process sensor output.) But you have to consider the type of business that's trying to replicate parts. A big camera service center with multiple employees will be able to do more than a single independent repairman; they could even make licensing agreements with camera companies to get the original specs of parts. Obviously, it's not prohibitively expensive for many industries because these labs and services exist. Is the film photography community and camera repair industry too poor to afford it?
Second, there's the environmental and political aspect. I support the Right to Repair movement. It's my property, I should be allowed to fix it and not have to throw it away or have it repaired only by the manufacturer. If they run out of spare parts after the 10 years they're legally obligated to provide service for, I should be permitted to make new parts. Maybe people don't like electronic film cameras enough to bother, but that's just a matter of preferring all mechanical cameras. How would preferences change if they were both equally repairable?
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
I sent a link to this thread to a friend of mine who has a couple of EE degrees and was a NASA engineer before he retired. He got quite a chuckle out of it. He said he’d show it around to his friends. One of his comments was, “going to the moon was probably easier.” He wondered, given the comments, how many people actually understood the level of complexity and miniaturization in electronic cameras, and the nature of the manufacturing processs in the real world. And costs.
This is a pipe dream. Harmless to dream, but don’t get your heart set on any significant amount of this coming to pass in the world of conscious people.
This is a pipe dream. Harmless to dream, but don’t get your heart set on any significant amount of this coming to pass in the world of conscious people.
DominikDUK
Well-known
Electronic cameras of the early 80's or earlier can't be compared to modern electronic cameras like an F5 F6 etc... those electro mechanical cameras that don't have a mini Computer build in a very far from extremely complex. I would agree with your friend in regards to cameras made in the late 80's until today that are more or less miniature Computers. But those earlier electro mechanical cameras are repairable also regarding flex circuits you can print them with printers so in a way you have it easier today than the mfg. from the 70's and 80's. The setup costs are not cheap but the rest
aizan
Veteran
Maybe some of them would be interested in coming out of retirement for a fun project?
Skiff
Well-known
Probably not in general, but in some special cases.
For a long time it has been said that for example the Leica Minilux is not repairable: It has one weak point, the electronic connection to the lens. But then some technicians tried to solve the problem and succeeded. Now there are at least two repair companies who can repair it.
Same with the Contax T2. But now there is a 22 year old repair enthusiast in England who can repair it.
As I have said in one of my earlier posts: In most cases cameras get defunct because of only 1 or 2 failures, weak points a certain model has. And that are often not complicated reasons for failure. But condensators, flexed cables, corrosion. And these failures can mostly be repaired.
In most cases you don't need to "reverse engineer a PCB or an internal processor". PCBs and processors are extremely robust.
We should not think too complicated. Lots of problems are not so severe and can be repaired with a certain amount of knowledge. And that is the real challenge and task for the future: To get more (young) repair technicians with electronic knowledge into the camera repair business. Exactly that has now been started by the company 'Camera Rescue' in Finland (see the parallel thread).
aizan
Veteran
Dealing with specific weak points is less daunting.
How hard would it be to make replacement flex cables for Konica Big Minis? Or film counter LCDs for Contax cameras?
How hard would it be to make replacement flex cables for Konica Big Minis? Or film counter LCDs for Contax cameras?
teddy
Jose Morales
Yep, good point. I'm learning to fix things myself and acquire or create the appropriate tools to fix and not botch up.
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
Maybe some of them would be interested in coming out of retirement for a fun project?
I’ll ask, but I think they’re good
ChrisPlatt
Thread Killer
I hear the USAF plans to still fly the B-52 when it's 70+ years old.
Anything is possible given deep enough pockets.
Mine aren't so deep; I'll stick to my old mechanical cameras.
Chris
Anything is possible given deep enough pockets.
Mine aren't so deep; I'll stick to my old mechanical cameras.
Chris
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
As an aside, as it concerns the known issue of LCD bleeds on Contax film counter windows:
I’ve got more Contax film cameras than I care to admit. Some of them I have had for well over thirty years, from new. Some bought later, several bought with LCD bleed issues already there.
People should not let that issue put them off these cameras, especially if the seller is discounting the camera because of the LCD issue. It’s not a big deal, it doesn’t interfere with the functionality of the camera in any way, it just looks scary. (If you are easily scared.) None of the bodies I purchased with LCD bleeds over ten years ago have gotten any worse over time, so that isn’t a given. Even if the film counter totally disappeared, which event would be rare, the camera will still work. You just won’t know exactly how many frames you have left. (Surprise!) And these bodies are really cheap right now for what they are. For what it’s worth.
