Reversing Leica priorities

[Roger Hicks]

Roger, as I've already posted ... my calculations included a slip in the decimal place.
Read my follow up post.
Cold medicine - I plead cold medicine syndrome! 🙂

Dear Pavel,

Sorry.

I began the post before my friends arrived for a barbecue and finished it afterwards, without reflecting that the question would almost certainly have been resolved in the intervening 3-4 hours.

(And if my sums are wrong I plead for a good quarter-share of the following to be taken into consideration: 1 bottle Cremant D'Alsace, 1 bottle Buzet Rose, 3 bottles assorted red).

Cheers,

R.

 

[kevin m]

...my worry is that this griping is damaging the brand.

Not nearly as much as letting the public do your beta testing. 😀

 

[Roger Hicks]

The Leicaholics have rationalized this marketing strategy by suggesting that leica has always been an expensive luxury item.

Dear Doug,

Possibly because it's the truth. Which numbers do you disagree with?

The price ain't the problem; never has been.

The problem is that in the future, not enough serious 'big name' photographers may endorse Leica by using their cameras.

The question is how much this matters. Will Leica do better by selling luxury items at a high price? Or will they do better trying to sell to a market that has, for the most part, moved on to DSLRs under the pressure of ultra-rapid reporting? No-one knows: not you, not me, not Dr. Kaufmann. All we can do is place our bets.

There's also the question of what's going to happen at the Leica launch party on Monday night. One source has said it's going to be 'Leipzig all over again.' Well, I'll know on Monday night, unless my train breaks down...

Cheers,

R.

 

[KoNickon]

"Leipzig all over again?" As in the start of the downfall of the DDR? Somehow I doubt there'll be too many scruffy idealist student types at that party.

We'll await your dispatches!

 

[anglophone1]

Roger Old boy
Don't tell me you didn't touch the Scapa??? ;-)
Enjoy [maybe wrong word?] Photokina
Rupert says HI!
Clive


s;898185]Dear Pavel,

Sorry.

I began the post before my friends arrived for a barbecue and finished it afterwards, without reflecting that the question would almost certainly have been resolved in the intervening 3-4 hours.

(And if my sums are wrong I plead for a good quarter-share of the following to be taken into consideration: 1 bottle Cremant D'Alsace, 1 bottle Buzet Rose, 3 bottles assorted red).

Cheers,

R.[/QUOTE]

 

[kevin m]

Possibly because it's the truth.

No, it's not.

Always expensive, sure; Always a "luxury item," no way.

How on earth can you possibly deny the weight of history? Lots and lots of real, working photographers have used Leicas in their work, some until quite recently. Now, most who own them (the M8) use them as "personal" cameras, and that's not going to keep the company afloat.

 

[SR1]

No, it's not.

Always expensive, sure; Always a "luxury item," no way.

How on earth can you possibly deny the weight of history? Lots and lots of real, working photographers have used Leicas in their work, some until quite recently. Now, most who own them (the M8) use them as "personal" cameras, and that's not going to keep the company afloat.

What's the problem with Leica being a luxury brand.

A luxury is something beyond that you actually need. Pro photographers need cameras but do they need Leicas? Amateurs don't need cameras at all so you could argue any camera is a luxury.

What's the hangup? Leicas are expensive and they need to be. The world is changing and Leica need to go where to money is. That means making cameras easy to use for rich people who want to buy kudos.

Your earlier reply to my post suggested Leica had already tried this route. They only launched the M8.2 a week ago so how have they failed already?

They also need to open their own boutiques offering a first class service worthy of the product.

That means with all the other "luxury" item shops.

I'm an engineer and I can tell you that good engineers (optical or otherwise) usually make lousy salesmen. Leica need to exploit everything about their brand. I'm really suprised they have not introduced the a la carte service for the M8. Also the endorsement by Hermes was a great idea, but the timing was lousy. Digital had already taken hold. Try it again with the M8.

Do people seriously think committing possibly hundreds of thousands into developing a full frame M (which I now think is further away than ever before thanks to Sonys 24MP sensor) will actually sell significantly more cameras than the M8?

Yes its a nice thought but not crutial to Leica. I can only guess at the cost of a full frame but even at todays prices I would think you're looking at £7000 plus. I bet most of those asking for full frame would not be prepared to pay for it and Leica know that.

Rich people who want a "kudos" camera don't care about full frame or how may pixels it might have.

Only my views and of course only Leica know what they have planned, but it must be to diversify their market. Chasing sales to pros and amateurs with cardigans and pipes (sorry unfair - shouldn't have said that but you're smiling aren't you? (RFF - can we have a tongue in cheek smiley?)) is not he future

SR

 

[pachuco]

Chasing sales to pros and amateurs with cardigans and pipes (sorry unfair - shouldn't have said that but you're smiling aren't you? (RFF - can we have a tongue in cheek smiley?)) is not he future

SR

Hey! I'm a pro that smokes a pipe and wears a cardigan! I wonder what that means for me. I guess I have to buy another Leica.😉

 

[johnastovall]

"Budget the Luxuries First." - RAH

 

[Dan States]

Folks, stop worrying your pretty little heads. If Leica's are priced right they will still be for sale in 5 years. If they are not priced right the market will slice off their heads. The free market will decide the true value of these cameras.

I for one am done supporting a brand that offers LESS every year for more money. They were my team but just like the Detroit Lions, they have pushed me too far. Hello Carl Zeiss.

 

[Dan States]

Hey! I'm a pro that smokes a pipe and wears a cardigan! I wonder what that means for me. I guess I have to buy another Leica.😉

I'm more of the "wear a pipe and smoke a cardigan" type myself.

 

[kevin m]

What's the problem with Leica being a luxury brand.

Because their optical excellence is quickly becoming irrelevant, for one.

They had a great idea with the MP/M7 combo. One body for the purists, another for those who wanted more modern features. They should do the same with the M8. Keep the M8 looking just like an M3 to keep the purists happy, then develop a digital M with a more modern feature set for professional use.

No professional use means the brand disappears. It's that simple. 🙂

 

[biggambi]

Yes, there is a 'reflected glamour' factor; but I suspect it is fairly incidental.

Leica was conceived (and, I suspect, continues to sell) as a highly desirable version of a common product, viz., a camera, i.e. as a luxury good.

There have always been enough people who used these luxury items to create good pictures (because they are also very good cameras) that Leica's reputation has been enhanced thereby. I am not, however, convinced that this is essential for the basic, target Leica market. The core buyers want a camera that is a pleasure to use, and, almost as an afterthought, delivers excellent pictures.

To be sure, encouraging the use of Leicas to make excellent pictures makes marketing sense, and they dio that via Leica prizes and the like; but if the subscribers to RFF were really Leica's core market, I think we'd see a lot more input directly from Solms.

Cheers,

R.

Roger,

I guess for me, I was trying to convey, in my prior post, that the images that I saw as a kid and as a young man were/and are inspirational. If Leica's market has been the wealthy. I can see that I came to own a Leica M through the back door. I purchased it because I wished to create images as great as those who had used this camera before me. It was an easy transition for me to leave the manual SLR to what felt like the finest tool in the world. It is amazing that in Leica's quest, they created a device that has such a strong form follows function reality. For me, the camera places less between me and my subject. I enjoy using the tool because of how it is easily manipulated in my hand. I find the feel of the lenses and the camera to be a significant factor in allowing it to become an extension of myself. This is only magnified by what are simply some of the finest optics in the world.

I suspect that a good part of this has to do with my being very tactile. Most massed produced and plastic morphed objects do not feel good to me. They lack what I perceive to be the hallmarks of quality. This paradigm may have shifted, and I am in error. But, I will most likely not change my attitude in this area. Partially do to personal experience, and partially do to the required test of time.

I too, agree with prior stated sentiments - Leica can do what ever it takes to sell cameras, if it means they continue to develop and sell "M's." For me the cost is prohibitive from a rational standpoint, but not from a passion for an art that brings me such joy. I am not a wealthy man, or a full time professional. Just an amateur that is good enough that from time to time others wish to own and display my vision. The renaissance and loyalist side of me hopes that some of those who are great, still continue to use the Leica M. Time will tell.

Thanks for the reply, and who would have know such a lively debate would follow.

Kindest Regards,

 

[peter_n]

Take some pictures. Lots and lots of pictures 😀

No need. They are streaming it live on the LUF and calling it "The Future of Memories"...

 

[Svitantti]

No professional use means the brand disappears. It's that simple. 🙂

Yeah, who's gonna buy those M8's when no pro's use them and some even dislike and criticize them. If half or most of the Magnum and such started using just M8 and talking nice stuff about digital Leica things might be different... Of course this means it should be such a great tool for (professional) photography.

How many people have bought a camera by the fame and maybe by the pictures it has taken in some of those legendary photographers use... And I'm not saying it is the smartest thing to buy a camera like your "idol" has (at least if it is the only reason), but sure it happens a lot 🙂. At least it might affect the decision between a couple good choices.

 

[charjohncarter]

It's like my 1976 Alfa Romeo, not in the Leica class, but I drove it for 30 years. I gave it to my son and now he drives it. Leica cameras are in a Leica class. They will work forever and you can pass them to your son/daughter. They don't seem to be very expensive when you look at it that way.

 

[slm]

I think Kevin M has a good argument. If working photographers were historically the target market for Leica products (please correct this if wrong), then the claim that Leica were always producing a luxury item isn't quite correct. I tend to believe they were producing the best product they could, which made it desirable to many people and certainly to the working photographer who required reliability and high image quality.

I really don't believe the core buyers of the M8 are people that simply want a camera thats a pleasure to use and delivers an excellent image as an afterthought. Buyers of Leica know the brand and the excellence behind it, else they are walking into their local camera shop and asking for the same camera the pro's use. And what's the clerk going to answer ??

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

I think Kevin M has a good argument. If working photographers were historically the target market for Leica products (please correct this if wrong), then the claim that Leica were always producing a luxury item isn't quite correct. I tend to believe they were producing the best product they could, which made it desirable to many people and certainly to the working photographer who required reliability and high image quality.

I really don't believe the core buyers of the M8 are people that simply want a camera thats a pleasure to use and delivers an excellent image as an afterthought. Buyers of Leica know the brand and the excellence behind it, else they are walking into their local camera shop and asking for the same camera the pro's use. And what's the clerk going to answer ??

The clerk will say: "Canon, Nikon, Hasselblad" Those are the brands the pros are using now. Sure, some use Leica's, Olympus, Pentax, etc. but 99% use one of those three brands, and of them virtually all own either a Canon or Nikon with a Hasselblad being a second system for the very few who use those Meduim Format digital cameras. A few pros still use medium format film cameras too, mostly Hasselblads or Mamiyas.

 

[Roger Hicks]

"Leipzig all over again?" As in the start of the downfall of the DDR?

I think he was referring more to the Spring Fair in 1925 when the Leica was introduced. Even so, it does sound a bit like hyperbole to me.

I would take pictures but I'd be using an M8 and everone knows they're no good so I won't bother. Time pressures mean than the MP is of less use.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Roger Old boy
Don't tell me you didn't touch the Scapa??? ;-)
Enjoy [maybe wrong word?] Photokina
Rupert says HI!

Dear Clive,

Hi! and not Woof!?

No, no Scapa. Like many French they drink whisky as an aperitif, not a digestif, and Scapa is much more of a digestif whisky in my book.

Off tomorrow...

Cheers,

R.