Beniliam
Out of the limelight
Sean,
I like Baudelaire, but concretely his figure of artist (dandy). Its very important for me the ´dandysm´ what represents, and the position in which it is located with respect to the art. The entailment of the modern art to the cities. And his function as art critic.
The dark side of his life also is attractive, the drugs, the brothels, the excesses, the night, Baudelaire is one of first that feels the torment of the modern man and the self-destruction.
I like more what he represents, that his Literature...
This is my linear diagram:
-Goya (engravings of the daily life:Los desastres de la Guerra, La Tauromaquia...)
I like Baudelaire, but concretely his figure of artist (dandy). Its very important for me the ´dandysm´ what represents, and the position in which it is located with respect to the art. The entailment of the modern art to the cities. And his function as art critic.
The dark side of his life also is attractive, the drugs, the brothels, the excesses, the night, Baudelaire is one of first that feels the torment of the modern man and the self-destruction.
I like more what he represents, that his Literature...
This is my linear diagram:
-Goya (engravings of the daily life:Los desastres de la Guerra, La Tauromaquia...)
- Baudelaire (The modern man, the great city, and the art)
-Kerstez (more of 70 years of photography in the street, influences direct to Cartier Bresson)
- Cartier Bresson (Composition and decisive moment)
- Elliot Erwitt (Daily humor, the paradoxical thing, visual language and dogs)
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Sean Reid
Guest
Beniliam,
That's an interesting progression. I think starting with Goya makes a lot of sense. In your diagram, which of those artists (to your knowledge) acknowledged the influence and/or wrote about it? I would imagine Erwitt acknowledged Cartier-Bresson...the others I'm curious about.
Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion,
Sean
That's an interesting progression. I think starting with Goya makes a lot of sense. In your diagram, which of those artists (to your knowledge) acknowledged the influence and/or wrote about it? I would imagine Erwitt acknowledged Cartier-Bresson...the others I'm curious about.
Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion,
Sean
Beniliam
Out of the limelight
I have recognized that the photographers whom but they have influenced to me are: Cartier Bresson. Elliot Erwitt, Robert Doisneau. But Andre Kerstez too, and many other...
I love Goya´s engravings (see this link) The Goya´s engravings are the begining of the photojournalism. Goya is witness of one century of changes. If in his first paintings he emphasizes by the vitality. With the years he disillusions of the life. Spain enters in monarchic crisis with the invasion of Napoleon, and the war is present in the daily life. Goya is a great observer, that with his charcoal and his brush it portrays the human barbarism. In addition Goya has obsessions that persecute him, that makes a mixture explosive, that overflows tenebrous and squalid humanity. But Goya, did not lose the faith absolutely, when it had to flee to France, deaf and old, discovers in Bordeaux, that still there are much to paint, as it exemplifies one of the titles of one of its last engravings: Aún aprendo (still I learn).
Baudelaire hated the photography, his friend Nadar made some unique pictures of Charles. Where their excesses and the premature oldness, have an enigmatic magnetism for the spectator. The figure of Baudelaire interests me because his putting in scene, his dandysm, his decay. His Literature, his conception of beauty, his attraction by the miserable things, are very interesting, but for me the personage, the figure, is what they make it only and creative of tendencies.
I love Goya´s engravings (see this link) The Goya´s engravings are the begining of the photojournalism. Goya is witness of one century of changes. If in his first paintings he emphasizes by the vitality. With the years he disillusions of the life. Spain enters in monarchic crisis with the invasion of Napoleon, and the war is present in the daily life. Goya is a great observer, that with his charcoal and his brush it portrays the human barbarism. In addition Goya has obsessions that persecute him, that makes a mixture explosive, that overflows tenebrous and squalid humanity. But Goya, did not lose the faith absolutely, when it had to flee to France, deaf and old, discovers in Bordeaux, that still there are much to paint, as it exemplifies one of the titles of one of its last engravings: Aún aprendo (still I learn).
Baudelaire hated the photography, his friend Nadar made some unique pictures of Charles. Where their excesses and the premature oldness, have an enigmatic magnetism for the spectator. The figure of Baudelaire interests me because his putting in scene, his dandysm, his decay. His Literature, his conception of beauty, his attraction by the miserable things, are very interesting, but for me the personage, the figure, is what they make it only and creative of tendencies.
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Sean Reid
Guest
Yes, I agree about Goya and the kind of work that Walker Evan's eventually came to call "documentary style". Also, in the same vein, Daumier and his pictures of carriage passengers. Evans often acknowledged his fascination with Baudelaire in interviews and his own writing. Robert Frank was very clear in discussing the influence Evans had on his work (and also the commonality of their work even before one knew the other existed)...and I think the influence may have gone both ways. Kerouac and Frank were contemporaries, ran in some of the same circles and influenced each other for sure. We get a sense of their wild life-in-common in the film "Pull My Daisy". Alan Ginsberg was, of course, part of the same crew.
The photographers who have been most important to my work are: Winogrand, Frank, Strand, Evans and Helen Levitt (who also helped me with the subway pictures). Writers: Kerouac and Hugo. Painters: Breughel the Elder, Degas, Vermeer, Delacroix (although loosely...too loosely). Musicians: Beethoven (esp. via Furtwangler), Billie Holiday, Coleman, Armstrong, Ellington, Mingus
Does anyone care that we've gone off-topic? I'm happy to go back to talking about lenses again if folks want.
Sean
The photographers who have been most important to my work are: Winogrand, Frank, Strand, Evans and Helen Levitt (who also helped me with the subway pictures). Writers: Kerouac and Hugo. Painters: Breughel the Elder, Degas, Vermeer, Delacroix (although loosely...too loosely). Musicians: Beethoven (esp. via Furtwangler), Billie Holiday, Coleman, Armstrong, Ellington, Mingus
Does anyone care that we've gone off-topic? I'm happy to go back to talking about lenses again if folks want.
Sean
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Jim Watts
Still trying to See.
Sean Reid said:
Hi Sean & Beniliam,
While I would not argue with this chain and the addition of Goya, IMHO I think that the inclusion of Atget between Baudelaire & Evans makes it even more linear.
Ornette Coleman gave a concert at the Barbican here last week which I sadly couldn't get to. The reviews said he is still blowing up a storm. I still remember being knocked out by a concert in London by his quartet in the early 70's. Coleman (Alto & T.Sax's + Violin), , Dewey Redman (Alto & T.Sax's), Charlie Haden (Bass) & Ed Blackwell (Drums).
Taking diversions from the linear route can often get you back on course, although perhaps not always further down the road. I'm very fond of Samuel Barber's music & especially 'Knoxville: Summer of 1915' which is inspired by James Agee's lyric opening to 'A Death in the Family' and Agee of course worked with Evan's on 'Let Us Now Praise Famous Men'.
I think that a case can be made for Garry Winogrand or Lee Friedlander (or maybe even Stephen Shore, another favourite of mine) to be the next step in the chain above, but its probably still to early to say.
It's good to be talking more about photography and influences rather than equipment even if it is off topic in this thread.
Jim
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Sean Reid
Guest
Hi Jim,
I agree that Atget fits in just as you say. There's some logic to this progression, first a lens test that isn't exactly about equipment followed by a discussion that soon isn't about the lens test. Free form...we'll come back to lenses when and if it's time.
It's good to hear you mention Stephen Shore. I studied closely under him for four years when I was at Bard College and he's remained a friend, although we only keep in touch every few years. I printed his B&W work from Andy Warhol's factory. Evans was absolutely an influence on Stephen who certainly has been a pioneer of color photography.
Cheers,
Sean
I agree that Atget fits in just as you say. There's some logic to this progression, first a lens test that isn't exactly about equipment followed by a discussion that soon isn't about the lens test. Free form...we'll come back to lenses when and if it's time.
It's good to hear you mention Stephen Shore. I studied closely under him for four years when I was at Bard College and he's remained a friend, although we only keep in touch every few years. I printed his B&W work from Andy Warhol's factory. Evans was absolutely an influence on Stephen who certainly has been a pioneer of color photography.
Cheers,
Sean
Jim Watts
Still trying to See.
Hi Sean,Sean Reid said:
Isn't there something called "Six Degrees of Separation" that is supposed to link everyone on the planet? I think we can do it in three (twice) here. You studied with Stephen Shore. I studied with the critic Gerry Badger (who is now a close friend). Gerry Badger wrote "The In Praise of A Quite Photographer" piece that accompanies Steven Shore's 2nd version of Uncommon Places (50 Unpublished Photographs 1973 - 1978) which was the catalogue to his 2002 show at Galerie Conrads, Dusseldorf. Gerry has also written a number of other articles on Stephen for various magazines.
I also see from the Bio on your website that you worked with and know Wendy Ewald. I met Wendy, I think in about the mid 70's when she briefly ran a small gallery in Alie Street in London's East End, 'The Half Moon Gallery', it was in the foyer of a community theartre of the same name and went on to become Camera Work. I was a gallery regular and once curated a show there, although the photogapher Ron Mc Cormick was then running it. I had wondered what ever became of her until I obtained her 2002 book "Secret Games, Collaborative Works with Children 1969 - 1999. Good to see that she has stuck with the community based work that was always expounded at the Half Moon. To further complete the circle back to your earlier post Adam Weinberg in the introduction to her book notes how much an admirer of of Evans and Agee she was.
It perhaps all shows that the photographic world is smaller and stranger than we (or at least I ) think.
Jim
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Sean Reid
Guest
Hi Jim,
It is a very small world... I haven't seen the second edition of "Uncommon Places" but I'll look for it and look for that Badger essay. Wendy has been prolific, she began working with children as photographers on a Native American Reservation and then in the Appalachia. The latter project lead to the book: "Portraits and Dreams", the essay for which was written by my close friend and former teacher, Ben Lifson. Ben introduced me to Wendy when I was still a student at Bard and I became her printer for the next couple of years. After I graduated, I went to Ireland and worked with children-as-photographers in the Connemara region of western Ireland. Wendy and I met a couple times in England while I was working on that project and then lost touch.
We should talk some more off-list. I imagine that some people reading this thread are wondering what the heck happened to the lens discussion. I've hijacked a thread about my own article <G>.
So, if anyone want to come back to a discussion of the lenses, feel free. Meanwhile, Jim and I likely have more to talk about via e-mail.
Cheers,
Sean
It is a very small world... I haven't seen the second edition of "Uncommon Places" but I'll look for it and look for that Badger essay. Wendy has been prolific, she began working with children as photographers on a Native American Reservation and then in the Appalachia. The latter project lead to the book: "Portraits and Dreams", the essay for which was written by my close friend and former teacher, Ben Lifson. Ben introduced me to Wendy when I was still a student at Bard and I became her printer for the next couple of years. After I graduated, I went to Ireland and worked with children-as-photographers in the Connemara region of western Ireland. Wendy and I met a couple times in England while I was working on that project and then lost touch.
We should talk some more off-list. I imagine that some people reading this thread are wondering what the heck happened to the lens discussion. I've hijacked a thread about my own article <G>.
So, if anyone want to come back to a discussion of the lenses, feel free. Meanwhile, Jim and I likely have more to talk about via e-mail.
Cheers,
Sean
Jim Watts
Still trying to See.
Apologies to Sean and all for helping to hijack this thread. To help bring it back to the discussion of lenses (and to prove I have been paying attention ) can I ask Sean if there was any particular reason that there are no 'upper left corner crop' results for the flat field tests at f/2.0 for the 35mm f/1.7 Ultron & 35mm f/2 Canon. Both seem to perform pretty well in the centre crops.
Sean, I'm away for a few days now but I'll send you PM or e-mail about the other "Free Form" discussion.
Jim
) can I ask Sean if there was any particular reason that there are no 'upper left corner crop' results for the flat field tests at f/2.0 for the 35mm f/1.7 Ultron & 35mm f/2 Canon. Both seem to perform pretty well in the centre crops.Sean, I'm away for a few days now but I'll send you PM or e-mail about the other "Free Form" discussion.
Jim
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Sean Reid
Guest
Gosh, no need to apologize to me...I was your partner in crime. Do you know, Jim, that you are the only person to have mentioned that omission to me? I thought lots of people were going to ask about that. In any case...it's just a layout mistake that we'll fix as soon as possible.
I tell y'all...this forum is such an oasis compared to most of what's out there.
Cheers,
Sean
I tell y'all...this forum is such an oasis compared to most of what's out there.
Cheers,
Sean
peter_n
Veteran
I'm pretty sure that nobody minded and everyone enjoyed the OT discussion. We are very lucky that we have a great moderator in Joe who tolerates such things.