nephilim
Established
Hi there,
I'm feeling a bit strange, as this is the first time I'm asking for help in a decision making process, but then my plan is pretty ambitious, too. Until now I've been shooting Nikon (D)SLR and have a very nice digital kit (D700 with the three big zooms from 14-200mm and some additional lenses), which allows me to do everything I want. This digital chapter is closed for me (at least until the D700 dies) and it's a very good feeling not to look for other lenses/bodies. Apart from this I'm shooting with an FM3a and three Nikon/Zeiss primes (28, 50, 100mm) and am very satisfied with this kit as well, hoping that the FM3a will live for the next decades. Altogether I feel no need to look for other gear in the 35mm SLR world. Medium format? At the moment I'm very sure I don't want to do this step. So am I done with gear? Unfortunately not!
I bought a Zorki-4K to see if I like rangefinder photography. All the flaky mechanics and weird ergonomics of that Russian beast aside, I fell in love with rangefinders and decided to get a complete RF kit. And this is where the trouble starts: I don't want to repeat the process of my former camera buys, where I slowly iterated towards the higher end bodies and lenses. Instead I want to do it "right" directly and buy the gear I want to use for the next (hopefully) decades. Possibly dangerous, because I have no experience in RF territory...
After looking at the options available, I quickly narrowed the choices down to the following selection: Leica M6, M7 or Zeiss Ikon. I was able to try an M7 in a local store but it's hard to touch a Zeiss Ikon. So the following is mainly based on reviews, discussions and photos by others. Comparing the M7 and Zeiss yielded the typical pros and cons: pro Zeiss: finder, better EV selection, higher shutter speeds (but reports of broken shutter), price!; pro M7: build!, silent shutter and "overall feel". Both cameras have annoying shortcomings but after all, I want to have a body that lasts very long and this pushes me towards a Leica. In know there are a lot of fans of the Zeiss and their arguments are completely vaild. In the end it must have been my shop visit - the Leica felt so amazingly well built. So I guess, the body selection is pretty much decided.
Next, which body. I want to buy a used camera (a new M7 is way too expensive) but looking at the prices of an M7, I quickly checked the M6 TTL, too. The older M6 is also nice but I don't like the tiny exposure dial. So this leads me to the question M7 or M6 TTL. Of course this has been discussed over and over again and the pros and cons are well known:
- M7 has poorly designed EV compensation dial on the back (I checked it in the shop and didn't like it very much)
- M7 seems to have a better (flare resistant) finder lately, whereas the M6 uses the old design
- of course no automatic exposure on the M6 but this might make the camera more robust? Alas, the shutter seems to be a bit louder... relatively
I know, that sometimes I like the ease of an auto-mode, but the dial on the back might be annyoing. Actually, this is my biggest problem with the M7. I also like the M7's ability to clock off long exposures. But then the M6 is a fully mechanical camera, which is pretty appealing to me (German, engineer ;-) I feel, I'm tending towards the M7 but like to hear your thoughts about this.
Lenses! What a pain!! The current prices are unbelievable!!! If I had the money, my idea was to get three primes similar to my SLR prime kit. My choice would be the 28/2.8 Summicron, the 50/1.4 ASPH Summilux and the 90/2.8 Elmarit. The latter seems to cost around 1000EUR used, which is ok for me. But prices around 2000-2500EUR for the other two lenses make me cry. And I don't want to go cheaper... Looking at photos taken with the 28/2.8 I see a harsher bokeh which I'm not too fond of. Regarding the 50/1.4 I want to have a fast lens in that region. Of course I know about the Zeiss line-up and that the 50/2 Planar is very close to the 50/2 Summicron, but if I wanted to stick to a 50/2 my life would be easier anyway.
All in all I fear, I'm doomed! I don't see myself getting out of this mess with less than 6000EUR.
This is a very uncomfortable situation, as I already have a very predefined picture of what I'd like to buy. Alas, I have no idea how to afford this without a 50% discount. The easiest way of course would be to start with a body and one lens, but unfortunately the mode often used ones (28 and 50) are the most expensive ones.
Well, that was a nice monologue
Any thoughts and recommendations are greatly appreciated! Is there anything I have forgotten and should consider?
Best,
Torsten
I'm feeling a bit strange, as this is the first time I'm asking for help in a decision making process, but then my plan is pretty ambitious, too. Until now I've been shooting Nikon (D)SLR and have a very nice digital kit (D700 with the three big zooms from 14-200mm and some additional lenses), which allows me to do everything I want. This digital chapter is closed for me (at least until the D700 dies) and it's a very good feeling not to look for other lenses/bodies. Apart from this I'm shooting with an FM3a and three Nikon/Zeiss primes (28, 50, 100mm) and am very satisfied with this kit as well, hoping that the FM3a will live for the next decades. Altogether I feel no need to look for other gear in the 35mm SLR world. Medium format? At the moment I'm very sure I don't want to do this step. So am I done with gear? Unfortunately not!
I bought a Zorki-4K to see if I like rangefinder photography. All the flaky mechanics and weird ergonomics of that Russian beast aside, I fell in love with rangefinders and decided to get a complete RF kit. And this is where the trouble starts: I don't want to repeat the process of my former camera buys, where I slowly iterated towards the higher end bodies and lenses. Instead I want to do it "right" directly and buy the gear I want to use for the next (hopefully) decades. Possibly dangerous, because I have no experience in RF territory...
After looking at the options available, I quickly narrowed the choices down to the following selection: Leica M6, M7 or Zeiss Ikon. I was able to try an M7 in a local store but it's hard to touch a Zeiss Ikon. So the following is mainly based on reviews, discussions and photos by others. Comparing the M7 and Zeiss yielded the typical pros and cons: pro Zeiss: finder, better EV selection, higher shutter speeds (but reports of broken shutter), price!; pro M7: build!, silent shutter and "overall feel". Both cameras have annoying shortcomings but after all, I want to have a body that lasts very long and this pushes me towards a Leica. In know there are a lot of fans of the Zeiss and their arguments are completely vaild. In the end it must have been my shop visit - the Leica felt so amazingly well built. So I guess, the body selection is pretty much decided.
Next, which body. I want to buy a used camera (a new M7 is way too expensive) but looking at the prices of an M7, I quickly checked the M6 TTL, too. The older M6 is also nice but I don't like the tiny exposure dial. So this leads me to the question M7 or M6 TTL. Of course this has been discussed over and over again and the pros and cons are well known:
- M7 has poorly designed EV compensation dial on the back (I checked it in the shop and didn't like it very much)
- M7 seems to have a better (flare resistant) finder lately, whereas the M6 uses the old design
- of course no automatic exposure on the M6 but this might make the camera more robust? Alas, the shutter seems to be a bit louder... relatively
I know, that sometimes I like the ease of an auto-mode, but the dial on the back might be annyoing. Actually, this is my biggest problem with the M7. I also like the M7's ability to clock off long exposures. But then the M6 is a fully mechanical camera, which is pretty appealing to me (German, engineer ;-) I feel, I'm tending towards the M7 but like to hear your thoughts about this.
Lenses! What a pain!! The current prices are unbelievable!!! If I had the money, my idea was to get three primes similar to my SLR prime kit. My choice would be the 28/2.8 Summicron, the 50/1.4 ASPH Summilux and the 90/2.8 Elmarit. The latter seems to cost around 1000EUR used, which is ok for me. But prices around 2000-2500EUR for the other two lenses make me cry. And I don't want to go cheaper... Looking at photos taken with the 28/2.8 I see a harsher bokeh which I'm not too fond of. Regarding the 50/1.4 I want to have a fast lens in that region. Of course I know about the Zeiss line-up and that the 50/2 Planar is very close to the 50/2 Summicron, but if I wanted to stick to a 50/2 my life would be easier anyway.
All in all I fear, I'm doomed! I don't see myself getting out of this mess with less than 6000EUR.
This is a very uncomfortable situation, as I already have a very predefined picture of what I'd like to buy. Alas, I have no idea how to afford this without a 50% discount. The easiest way of course would be to start with a body and one lens, but unfortunately the mode often used ones (28 and 50) are the most expensive ones.
Well, that was a nice monologue
Any thoughts and recommendations are greatly appreciated! Is there anything I have forgotten and should consider?Best,
Torsten
Clovis
Established
You should consider Voigtlander and Zeiss ZM lenses.
Jamie123
Veteran
That's not an uncomfortable situation. A prostate exam is an uncomfortable situation. You're just trying to justify to yourself buying yet another camera.
Seriously, if you don't have the money, don't buy it. You have more than enough cameras already. If you find you're more into rangefinder photography, sell some of your other gear to fund one.
You're really just buying gear that you don't need. That's fine. That's why it's called a hobby. But do yourself the favour and don't try to make it all sound reasonable.
historicist
Well-known
In my experience of buying things its a bit pointless to plan too much because before you've had some experience with it you can't really tell what you will like or not.
In the last few years I purchased a lot of different cameras, and used them, and sold them if I didn't get on with it or wanted to try a new one.
+ it's great fun trying all sorts of cameras
+ and now I've tried them all I don't need to worry about whether camera X someone or everyone on the internet is raving about would make my life complete because I already know
+ by and large I sold them for about what I paid for them, so it hasn't really cost me anything
+ now I know what kind of thing I like without having to worry about it
++ which is doubly good because now I know that I prefer medium format to 35mm, I don't have to be upset that I can't afford Leica lenses anymore. Rolleiflex FTW!
In the last few years I purchased a lot of different cameras, and used them, and sold them if I didn't get on with it or wanted to try a new one.
+ it's great fun trying all sorts of cameras
+ and now I've tried them all I don't need to worry about whether camera X someone or everyone on the internet is raving about would make my life complete because I already know
+ by and large I sold them for about what I paid for them, so it hasn't really cost me anything
+ now I know what kind of thing I like without having to worry about it
++ which is doubly good because now I know that I prefer medium format to 35mm, I don't have to be upset that I can't afford Leica lenses anymore. Rolleiflex FTW!
Last edited:
Fujitsu
Well-known
Sell all the stuff which obviously is getting in your way, buy a simple mechanical SLR (old Minolta, Canon, Nikon...) and a few nice lenses.
Take pictures, dont worry about money or gear anymore.
Finder
Veteran
Possiblilities:
New
Voigtlander Bessa rangefinder bodies
Cosina Voigtlander Lenses
Used
Same as above
Konica Hexar RF
Konica Hexanon M lenses
Minolta CLE
Minolta M-Rokkor lenses (better than Leitz CL lenses as they are multicoated)
Leitz CL
Since you have no real experience with rangefinders, I don't think your argument that you actually know what your "final" camera will be is sound. Actually, the only-camera-I-will-ever-need position is a weak one--ask anyone here.
New
Voigtlander Bessa rangefinder bodies
Cosina Voigtlander Lenses
Used
Same as above
Konica Hexar RF
Konica Hexanon M lenses
Minolta CLE
Minolta M-Rokkor lenses (better than Leitz CL lenses as they are multicoated)
Leitz CL
Since you have no real experience with rangefinders, I don't think your argument that you actually know what your "final" camera will be is sound. Actually, the only-camera-I-will-ever-need position is a weak one--ask anyone here.
Pablito
coco frío
You need to worry more. Meanwhile get an M6 and a Voigtlander 35mm lens.
BTW, having shot with a bunch of M6 cameras for the last 20 years, I can assure you the flare in the finder thing is largely an invention of obsessed individuals on the internet. Sure there is a difference but it's not a big deal. Now they can start to throw pies.
BTW, having shot with a bunch of M6 cameras for the last 20 years, I can assure you the flare in the finder thing is largely an invention of obsessed individuals on the internet. Sure there is a difference but it's not a big deal. Now they can start to throw pies.
Last edited:
MCTuomey
Veteran
sell the least used gear from your dSLR kit. or dollar down the tab for the RF: a zeiss ikon and a couple of VC lenses. try to fret less and shoot more (written by one who knows how to fret).
gilpen123
Gil
I suggest to get the M6 TTL 0.72. The 0.85 is really prone to flare much more than the 0.72 and 0.58 so an MP upgrade may be needed. VC lenses are good to go with the M6.
Landshark
Well-known
You refer to a 28/2.8 Summicron in the OP.
Summicron is always f2, Elmarit is 2.8. The 28/2.8 Elmarit should run you about $1k USD. That's about 1/2 of what you're budgeting for the WA.
Summicron is always f2, Elmarit is 2.8. The 28/2.8 Elmarit should run you about $1k USD. That's about 1/2 of what you're budgeting for the WA.
Thardy
Veteran
I bought a Bessa R2A in 2007, then an M6TTL. Over the last several months I noticed that I use the Bessa almost exclusively when I use an RF.
I think I like the easier film loading and aperture priority automatic exposure.
I think I like the easier film loading and aperture priority automatic exposure.
atlcruiser
Part Yeti
I have the M6ttl and think that is the end for me....until M9
I feel it is the perfect M.
Lenses are really not as expensive as I thought. I kept my eyes open and was always ready to jump on a deal. Most of my lenses came from the classifieds here. I also find that I do not need or use that many lenses.
One lens and one body is how I started and it worked great for me.
best of luck
I feel it is the perfect M.
Lenses are really not as expensive as I thought. I kept my eyes open and was always ready to jump on a deal. Most of my lenses came from the classifieds here. I also find that I do not need or use that many lenses.
One lens and one body is how I started and it worked great for me.
best of luck
Roger Hicks
Veteran
After 40 years Leica use:
1 Don't piss around with Mickey Mouse kit that you will never be happy with.
2 Don't imagine that new Leica kit is the only route. Do you need a meter?If yes, that lets out M4-P or earlier. Otherwise I still love my M2. Lenses: well, my favourites are 35/1,4 pre-aspheric Summilux, 50/1.5 C-Sonnar, 75/2 Apo-Summicron. Frances's favourites are 18/4 Zeiss (because we can't afford a WATE), 50/2.5 Summarit. She uses a ZI WA with the 18, and either an R2 or an MP with the 50.
Cheers,
R.
1 Don't piss around with Mickey Mouse kit that you will never be happy with.
2 Don't imagine that new Leica kit is the only route. Do you need a meter?If yes, that lets out M4-P or earlier. Otherwise I still love my M2. Lenses: well, my favourites are 35/1,4 pre-aspheric Summilux, 50/1.5 C-Sonnar, 75/2 Apo-Summicron. Frances's favourites are 18/4 Zeiss (because we can't afford a WATE), 50/2.5 Summarit. She uses a ZI WA with the 18, and either an R2 or an MP with the 50.
Cheers,
R.
oftheherd
Veteran
When I first joined RFF, much of the talk was about how surprisingly good the FSU cameras and lenses could be. If money is a problem, you might want to consider staying with your Zorki and getting some good FSU lenses.
The other thing talked about much back then, was how well the Leica lenses worked with the FSU cameras. So, you might want to consder getting some of the Leica lenses you want and putting them on the Zorki until you are sure which Leica you want. Neither the Leica lenses nor the Zorki will feel bad if you do that.
The other thing talked about much back then, was how well the Leica lenses worked with the FSU cameras. So, you might want to consder getting some of the Leica lenses you want and putting them on the Zorki until you are sure which Leica you want. Neither the Leica lenses nor the Zorki will feel bad if you do that.
nephilim
Established
Thanks for all the replies and for not being too gentle
To clarify some things first:
@Fujitsu: The FM3a is just the thing you describe. I use it with the 28/2.8Ai-s, the 50/1.2 Ai-s and Zeiss 100/2 Makro-Planar. A more or less classic kit which I enjoy very much... as an SLR.
This posting of mine might give a wrong picture. Usually, it's me who often thinks and sometimes says that people should stop worrying about the next camera release, the latest lens and other fancy stuff but take pictures instead. However, this RF and Leica territory feels very exciting, hence I'm starting to behave foolishly.
So foolishly, I wrote 28/2.8 Summicron :-/
Selling the digital kit is no option, as there is enough stuff I want to do but cannot or don't want to do with a RF or film in general. Selling the least used lens of the digital kit... That's difficult because I already sold some stuff and use the remaining lenses regularly. My guitar amp is next...
Ok, I thought about this once more and agree that it's wiser to start with just one lens and not necessarily one of the more expensive ones. The 50/2 or 35/2 seem to be a very good starting point; possibly the 50/2 as I hardly used the 35mm length on digital and sold that lens soon. A used Summicron is not too expensive, so that's what I'll be looking for in the next time. This leaves the question which body to get. I know the Bessa is a good deal but I'm not too fond of this one. My thoughts about the Zeiss vs. Leica are unchanged. So an M7 or M6 or ealier? When I was walking home today there was again one of those situations where you walk around a corner and into a great scene - but with different light. An auto exposure feature would come in very handy. I think the M7 is a good solution for me and the only missing thing is the finder: 0.72 or 0.85 and e.g. a small Voigtlander finder for wider lenses... Will the 0.72 be precise enough for a later 75 or 90mm lens? In addition, osme complain about barely usable 28mm finder lines in the x0.72...
Now the whole matter sounds more reasonable to me... at least a little bit.
Thanks all for your input!
Cheers,
Torsten
To clarify some things first:
@Fujitsu: The FM3a is just the thing you describe. I use it with the 28/2.8Ai-s, the 50/1.2 Ai-s and Zeiss 100/2 Makro-Planar. A more or less classic kit which I enjoy very much... as an SLR.
This posting of mine might give a wrong picture. Usually, it's me who often thinks and sometimes says that people should stop worrying about the next camera release, the latest lens and other fancy stuff but take pictures instead. However, this RF and Leica territory feels very exciting, hence I'm starting to behave foolishly.
So foolishly, I wrote 28/2.8 Summicron :-/
Selling the digital kit is no option, as there is enough stuff I want to do but cannot or don't want to do with a RF or film in general. Selling the least used lens of the digital kit... That's difficult because I already sold some stuff and use the remaining lenses regularly. My guitar amp is next...
Ok, I thought about this once more and agree that it's wiser to start with just one lens and not necessarily one of the more expensive ones. The 50/2 or 35/2 seem to be a very good starting point; possibly the 50/2 as I hardly used the 35mm length on digital and sold that lens soon. A used Summicron is not too expensive, so that's what I'll be looking for in the next time. This leaves the question which body to get. I know the Bessa is a good deal but I'm not too fond of this one. My thoughts about the Zeiss vs. Leica are unchanged. So an M7 or M6 or ealier? When I was walking home today there was again one of those situations where you walk around a corner and into a great scene - but with different light. An auto exposure feature would come in very handy. I think the M7 is a good solution for me and the only missing thing is the finder: 0.72 or 0.85 and e.g. a small Voigtlander finder for wider lenses... Will the 0.72 be precise enough for a later 75 or 90mm lens? In addition, osme complain about barely usable 28mm finder lines in the x0.72...
Now the whole matter sounds more reasonable to me... at least a little bit.
Thanks all for your input!
Cheers,
Torsten
Last edited: