chippy
foo was here
I'm not sure why am bothering with this, but its a cold sunday afternoon and i cant bare watching my football team play like complete idiots for another minute.
Reading Rubens post and understanding it in basis, are two different obstacles to overcome in itself, partly because i havnt read the thread Internet forums V creativity & improvement (and now i am sure i will not bother to do so) and partly because i find his writing style challenging, i actually think i have an easier time understanding Shakespeare written in its original form sometimes
, as such i cant criticise his writing because it may be art in itself (little semi jk there Ruben, not trying to offend). i figure he may well be a thousand times better at writing than me so i simply do my best to understand what he is getting at.
correct me if i am wrong, but i 'think' what Ruben is getting at is, in condensed form simply:
defending the notion that we should be free to talk gear talk without the common cry from others saying the common statements such as, 'its is only the final image that matters' or 'cameras are just tools, it doesn't matter what you use' . in what he perhaps feels is often said unfairly from a perceived elitist or arrogant group of people that repeat these phrases as though they are the rule and anyone that cares to discuss gear cant be taken seriously. some of those thoughts/comments seem to originate from some people on RFF that claim they have the voice or following of the world, or at least within their local/town/city
;that he appreciates the contributions from people that have contributed within the feild of photography (he named a couple of Japanese people), and perhaps suggests they warrant respect and discussion on RFF (in other words gear talk).
;he argues that photography encompasses more than just the final print (nothing is absolute)
;he argues that RFF is unique and expresses that it provides for its members, a source of deep, rich community pride ...(personanaly i wouldnt write that unless i was on my 5th bottle of red wine )
i havnt quite deciphered what the last two paragraphs are about RRF LIGHT and the ABC?..i have probably missed something in a previous post
seeing how people cant seem to understand what he is saying i thought i would give it a shot...is it around the mark Ruben? or way off base?
obviously Ruben this subject you felt strongly enough to write about so you didnt appreciate the humour following, it did get kinda out of control at your expense. there were some funny comments though--i hope you can laugh at yourself and not take them to seriously/personanly
Reading Rubens post and understanding it in basis, are two different obstacles to overcome in itself, partly because i havnt read the thread Internet forums V creativity & improvement (and now i am sure i will not bother to do so) and partly because i find his writing style challenging, i actually think i have an easier time understanding Shakespeare written in its original form sometimes
, as such i cant criticise his writing because it may be art in itself (little semi jk there Ruben, not trying to offend). i figure he may well be a thousand times better at writing than me so i simply do my best to understand what he is getting at.correct me if i am wrong, but i 'think' what Ruben is getting at is, in condensed form simply:
defending the notion that we should be free to talk gear talk without the common cry from others saying the common statements such as, 'its is only the final image that matters' or 'cameras are just tools, it doesn't matter what you use' . in what he perhaps feels is often said unfairly from a perceived elitist or arrogant group of people that repeat these phrases as though they are the rule and anyone that cares to discuss gear cant be taken seriously. some of those thoughts/comments seem to originate from some people on RFF that claim they have the voice or following of the world, or at least within their local/town/city
;that he appreciates the contributions from people that have contributed within the feild of photography (he named a couple of Japanese people), and perhaps suggests they warrant respect and discussion on RFF (in other words gear talk).
;he argues that photography encompasses more than just the final print (nothing is absolute)
;he argues that RFF is unique and expresses that it provides for its members, a source of deep, rich community pride ...(personanaly i wouldnt write that unless i was on my 5th bottle of red wine
)i havnt quite deciphered what the last two paragraphs are about RRF LIGHT and the ABC?..i have probably missed something in a previous post
seeing how people cant seem to understand what he is saying i thought i would give it a shot...is it around the mark Ruben? or way off base?
obviously Ruben this subject you felt strongly enough to write about so you didnt appreciate the humour following, it did get kinda out of control at your expense. there were some funny comments though
--i hope you can laugh at yourself and not take them to seriously/personanlymfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
Ruben,
As one who was (in part inadvertantly) one of the hooligans who helped derail your thread, I'd like to try to take things a bit more seriously.
While language problems make it hard for me to tell for sure, what seems to be getting your goat (curried or otherwise) is people who say nasty things about gear discussion, and instead want to talk about photographic art. You think discussion about gear is quite appropriate to RFF, you've appreciated it and you like to participate in such discussions.
I think that's perfectly fine, and thus far I can agree with you. Where I think you're going wrong here is taking expressions of frustration in some particular circumstances and interpreting them as a general critique of RFF: a forum you're especially fond of.
I can understand the frustration of an exhibited, experienced, fine art or otherwise serious photographer who sees, for the umpty-third time, some comment about "only a Dual Range Summicron with double-reverse overhead twin-cam door handles" can be used to produce a decent photo, when stated by someone who only ever takes photos of brick walls and test charts. When the photographer tries a gentle corrective of the "artistic photos can be taken in many ways" kind, they get told they're an idiot because the bokeh in the lower-left-hand corner of their chosen lens is all wrong. And so said artist makes some overheated comment about "gearheads" and "measurebators". In frustration. Not because they hate gear discussions or all those who talk about photographic equipment.
This is akin to someone who really is technically proficient in photography who sees some blurry, overexposed, ill-defined blob of a thing that barely resembles a photograph - and is told that it is "art". Not because it is actually artistic, but because the moron who produced it doesn't know how to work a camera and is making a virtue out of a vice. In frustration, such a photographer might make some nasty comment about "artsy-fartsy morons who can't tell their aperture from their ar**h*le." But that photographer wouldn't really be against art (even of the non-represational kind) and also wouldn't be seeking to ban discussion of "art" (however defined) from RFF.
Really, you should chill out a bit. It's all good, really. I've just (before writing this) slopped some Tri-X in some HC-110. Photos taken with my M3 and Elmar-M 50mm/f2.8. The negatives are drying, and to the eye they look good so far. I'll scan them in the morning and may produce some work prints in the evening (once I get a chance to look at the scans). The gear, the process and even the choice of an RF camera are (at least in part) the result of reading discussions about gear here on RFF and also from admiring some of the images posted on RFF and thinking "I'd like to try that and see what I can produce".
Again, its all good: I enjoyed using the gear, I'm working on the process and maybe, perhaps, I might produce a print or two that I like. And I've poured myself a glass of wine. All legitimate things to discuss here on RFF and I don't think anyone is seriously saying otherwise.
...Mike
As one who was (in part inadvertantly) one of the hooligans who helped derail your thread, I'd like to try to take things a bit more seriously.
While language problems make it hard for me to tell for sure, what seems to be getting your goat (curried or otherwise) is people who say nasty things about gear discussion, and instead want to talk about photographic art. You think discussion about gear is quite appropriate to RFF, you've appreciated it and you like to participate in such discussions.
I think that's perfectly fine, and thus far I can agree with you. Where I think you're going wrong here is taking expressions of frustration in some particular circumstances and interpreting them as a general critique of RFF: a forum you're especially fond of.
I can understand the frustration of an exhibited, experienced, fine art or otherwise serious photographer who sees, for the umpty-third time, some comment about "only a Dual Range Summicron with double-reverse overhead twin-cam door handles" can be used to produce a decent photo, when stated by someone who only ever takes photos of brick walls and test charts. When the photographer tries a gentle corrective of the "artistic photos can be taken in many ways" kind, they get told they're an idiot because the bokeh in the lower-left-hand corner of their chosen lens is all wrong. And so said artist makes some overheated comment about "gearheads" and "measurebators". In frustration. Not because they hate gear discussions or all those who talk about photographic equipment.
This is akin to someone who really is technically proficient in photography who sees some blurry, overexposed, ill-defined blob of a thing that barely resembles a photograph - and is told that it is "art". Not because it is actually artistic, but because the moron who produced it doesn't know how to work a camera and is making a virtue out of a vice. In frustration, such a photographer might make some nasty comment about "artsy-fartsy morons who can't tell their aperture from their ar**h*le." But that photographer wouldn't really be against art (even of the non-represational kind) and also wouldn't be seeking to ban discussion of "art" (however defined) from RFF.
Really, you should chill out a bit. It's all good, really. I've just (before writing this) slopped some Tri-X in some HC-110. Photos taken with my M3 and Elmar-M 50mm/f2.8. The negatives are drying, and to the eye they look good so far. I'll scan them in the morning and may produce some work prints in the evening (once I get a chance to look at the scans). The gear, the process and even the choice of an RF camera are (at least in part) the result of reading discussions about gear here on RFF and also from admiring some of the images posted on RFF and thinking "I'd like to try that and see what I can produce".
Again, its all good: I enjoyed using the gear, I'm working on the process and maybe, perhaps, I might produce a print or two that I like. And I've poured myself a glass of wine. All legitimate things to discuss here on RFF and I don't think anyone is seriously saying otherwise.
...Mike
chippy
foo was here
i would not agree Ruben that a strap is a concrete application of art. a well crafted strap such as a Luigi strap for example is surely a great/nice strap, some of his are designed to protect the camera from being scratched by the metal rings, they function well, comfortable and look fantastic. thats not to say that we might not say 'hey those straps are a work of art' when comparing them to others, but to me that is only said as a description to be taken within its context of separating his straps from cheaply made or poorer quality straps mass produced. one could easily take it to the other extreme when describing a mass produced strap and say 'hey those straps are cr*p'. it is not to be taken literately, they are not pieces of art that can stand alone hanging on the wall or in the foyer of a building in place of a sculpture.
the same can be said for some cameras that are hand built with precision and to our eyes (as photographers) we might say they are so beautiful to look at, handle or use, they might work with such unfailing precision we admire them. all within the field of photography, the designer/maker might be described as an artist. that doesn't mean it IS art but that we are paying the highest compliment ....art is subjective....but thats how i see it anyway
i dont see anything wrong with talking gear either, if you dont like it dont do it...i have some great camel hair water paint brushes worth several hundred dollars each, do i need them to paint, of course not, but they are lovely to use and do function somewhat better than a cheap substitute so i very much appreciate them. on the other hand i still have only a basic low mid quality easel, i would like a better one but its something i just havnt ever got around to..it works ok, does the job. when it comes to cameras i completely appreciate some people come at it from the angle that it is just a box but i also appreciate that the quality of a tool can be such a lovely fit with oneself it is a joy to use--perhaps more often than you would otherwise, or simply allows you to work unobstructed
***translation to English of Ruben's posts*****
Ruben feels that the image is not the entire point of photography. He feels that the aesthetics of well-designed equipment, the exchange of ideas concerning the deeper meaning of things, and the enhanced sense of belonging to a unique community as exemplified by RFF all contribute to a meaningful life experience.
Ruben disdains those who claim to only be interested in image-making and who only regard cameras and gear as tools rather than a part of an organic whole which forms the entire creative process. He feels these arrogant fakers are hypocritical when they claim to come to the forum only to relax after producing masterpieces.
Ruben is full of righteous indignation at the injustice of people making jokes in "his" thread. Ruben is a serious man who only discusses serious matters, and people who dare to make light of his thoughts are behaving like rude, porcine, uneducated, boorish English football hooligans, and should be ashamed of themselves. These poor specimens of humanity owe Ruben a sincere apology, and then, cap in hand, should beg Ruben's forgiveness.
* watching Moe or Larry or Curly receive a pie in the face would only baffle Ruben. He would not feel this is humorous.
.
Ruben feels that the image is not the entire point of photography. He feels that the aesthetics of well-designed equipment, the exchange of ideas concerning the deeper meaning of things, and the enhanced sense of belonging to a unique community as exemplified by RFF all contribute to a meaningful life experience.
Ruben disdains those who claim to only be interested in image-making and who only regard cameras and gear as tools rather than a part of an organic whole which forms the entire creative process. He feels these arrogant fakers are hypocritical when they claim to come to the forum only to relax after producing masterpieces.
Ruben is full of righteous indignation at the injustice of people making jokes in "his" thread. Ruben is a serious man who only discusses serious matters, and people who dare to make light of his thoughts are behaving like rude, porcine, uneducated, boorish English football hooligans, and should be ashamed of themselves. These poor specimens of humanity owe Ruben a sincere apology, and then, cap in hand, should beg Ruben's forgiveness.
* watching Moe or Larry or Curly receive a pie in the face would only baffle Ruben. He would not feel this is humorous.
.
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mfunnell
Shaken, so blurred
I'm sorry Fred, but I'm not getting your cultural references. Perhaps a translation using Shake, Meatwad and Frylock? I might be able to, um, process that.
...Mike
...Mike
It's too deep for me, I only like pictures of Japanese girls and hamburgers.
Sparrow
Veteran
I see now, I thought it was more like one of those prefects at school who knew their duty was to protect an individual, but couldn't resist joining in the bullying of someone with a different point of view, I was clearly wrong I see now
Sparrow
Veteran
Really? I hadn't noticed any attempt at empathy, just puerile chanting.
Does Lord of the Flies, Wm Golding is it? get into the set books list in US education?
Does Lord of the Flies, Wm Golding is it? get into the set books list in US education?
I don't see any "bullying" or "Lord of the Flies" ganging-up type behavior.
Perhaps you're projecting?
Ruben is well-liked and well-tolerated. Ruben makes these declarations which practically stand up and beg for witty replies.
You confuse humor with aggression. Who bullied you in your childhood?
Perhaps you're projecting?
Ruben is well-liked and well-tolerated. Ruben makes these declarations which practically stand up and beg for witty replies.
You confuse humor with aggression. Who bullied you in your childhood?
Gumby
Veteran
deleted
Oh... why bother?
Oh... why bother?
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rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
Perhaps so, but I've not seen any yet so I can't really tell.
Rob
Gumby
Veteran
Perhaps you could add one... just so we know what a witty reply looks like?
rbiemer
Unabashed Amateur
So, aguy walks into a bar. Too bad,he should have seen it coming...
Rob
Rob
Gumby
Veteran
Lol!
Sun's "Mosaic" challenged the Internet and is responsible for making it what it is today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(web_browser))
RFF owes its existence to pioneering products like it.
RFF holds power over those that are willing to follow advice that is mostly based on the experience of someone that they have never met in person. Some that give advice like to back it up with example photographs or "how to threads". And in most instances, the advice given is to buy an Archaic piece of photographic equipment, or how to repair an archaic piece of photographic equipment. I've been using archaic photographic equipment for a longtime, even before it was archaic.
But when it came to challenging the Internet with things like Gigabit rate optical communications in the 1980s and IP over SONET in the 1990s, we were pretty much bleeding edge.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(web_browser))
RFF owes its existence to pioneering products like it.
RFF holds power over those that are willing to follow advice that is mostly based on the experience of someone that they have never met in person. Some that give advice like to back it up with example photographs or "how to threads". And in most instances, the advice given is to buy an Archaic piece of photographic equipment, or how to repair an archaic piece of photographic equipment. I've been using archaic photographic equipment for a longtime, even before it was archaic.
But when it came to challenging the Internet with things like Gigabit rate optical communications in the 1980s and IP over SONET in the 1990s, we were pretty much bleeding edge.
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PRJ
Another Day in Paradise
Who cares? I can't understand why people get their panties all bundled up when others do something that they don't approve of. Some people like to talk about gear, some people like to take pictures. Some people like to think they are creating "art" and that the camera is sooo important to the process. I think it is all a bunch of drivel. Come here to do what you want Ruben and ignore the people who don't fall into your world. I have never really posted much here over the years for many reasons, mostly because it is difficult to get the message through if you are not one of the popular ones. I still enjoy reading threads, not so much this one though.
I realize that my post is slightly hypocritical, but oh well.
Patrick
I realize that my post is slightly hypocritical, but oh well.
Patrick
Fixed the Link. We used Mosaic mostly on the Sun Sparcs. To be honest, I forget if some of the funding was supplied by Sun or not. I remember that they were an early adopter of it. I've used Sun's for various things since the late 80s, but never did code development on them. We were talking over Internet yesterday, and Nina had used the Browser and forgotten the name. "Mosaic" and some old memories surfaced.
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R
ruben
Guest
Hi folks,
Today Sunday, Israel starts its working week, for me untill Thursday late. Most of my image making is done precisely at my working days, so I am not sure I will be available for continuing this debate much longer. It is not only due to my timetable, but also related to making room for other members to express themselves.
What the debate is about ?
It has been moving along two planes. One is the theoretical one about what is Photography. The other has been the message encapsulated by the behaviour of the hooligans of this thread. They do represent something beyond their own disgrace, which better we do give attention to.
A lot of correct and uncorrect things have been asigned to me, some of them truly honest, others pathetically levantine without any chance of Oscar postulation. What I have been saying is that the world of Photography goes far beyond that of Art Photography.
Photography started as a technological invention, became a medium of mass comunication and scientific research. And when I mention scientific research I leave it to your imagination the endless fields in which it has and is being used.
Besides all this, uncountable millions of people used and use photgraphic means to record their relatives, their experiences, their lives to the best of their abilities.
So I will not even discuss with our Oscar self awarded genius when he says Ruben feels that the image is not the entire point of photography. A true waist of time.
If you double click on my avatar and look after the threads I have opened, you will find I think a variety of interests ranging from cameras, through dioptric ideas, philosophy and history of photography. Oh, and shtrudel too. I think that in all these I have not been different than the huge huge majority of RFF members, whose interest is varied too.
The hooligans' gospel
Since I became a member I have seen RFF at distress as well as gaining strength. Jorge founded it, gave a great push forwards and later Stephen enhanced this website to levels of richness of contents and membership inflow hardly we could imagine few years ago. RFF has been a true succesfull enterprise since its inception. I am proud of having given my grain of sand as every member has.
In my personal opinion, it is precisely the success of RFF what motivates more and more self declared personalities, hardly known beyond their relatives and friends, a hardship to ignore it. So they either pour their venom from the outside, or pass by to release it inside. The script: RFF is a gear talk site. Silly gear talk site.
The internal problem
What astonishes me at this point, is the easyness with which veteran members can keep quiet, while others even join the feast, taking issue with me instead of the contents. They are of course free to criticize RFF now, yesterday or tomorrow, but joining a bunch of hooligans hijacking a thread for doing so, is more than an assesment of lack of character.
Why I call them a bunch of Brittish stadium hooligans ? Because no levity can fade the action of hijacking a thread, out of disagreement. Rather I should had call them a bunch of intellectual cowards deluding themselves they are "artists" - but it is more or less the same.
Now, why it is that bad that veteran members keep quiet when gear talk is attacked ? As you have seen, I myself have no special problem to stand alone against all the bunch - after all their total weight is more apparent than real, but we have all the time new people as well as less new people who should not be intimidated to speak about whatever they like to.
The bunch of hooligans that consolidated at this thread under the mask of "art" - are an intimidating clique taking bad advantage of the formal freedom of speech. This is not the task of the moderators, because the attack is subtle. But if more members cannot stand up and defend RFF good traditions, our common home will start to crumble.
Cheers,
Ruben
Today Sunday, Israel starts its working week, for me untill Thursday late. Most of my image making is done precisely at my working days, so I am not sure I will be available for continuing this debate much longer. It is not only due to my timetable, but also related to making room for other members to express themselves.
What the debate is about ?
It has been moving along two planes. One is the theoretical one about what is Photography. The other has been the message encapsulated by the behaviour of the hooligans of this thread. They do represent something beyond their own disgrace, which better we do give attention to.
A lot of correct and uncorrect things have been asigned to me, some of them truly honest, others pathetically levantine without any chance of Oscar postulation. What I have been saying is that the world of Photography goes far beyond that of Art Photography.
Photography started as a technological invention, became a medium of mass comunication and scientific research. And when I mention scientific research I leave it to your imagination the endless fields in which it has and is being used.
Besides all this, uncountable millions of people used and use photgraphic means to record their relatives, their experiences, their lives to the best of their abilities.
So I will not even discuss with our Oscar self awarded genius when he says Ruben feels that the image is not the entire point of photography. A true waist of time.
If you double click on my avatar and look after the threads I have opened, you will find I think a variety of interests ranging from cameras, through dioptric ideas, philosophy and history of photography. Oh, and shtrudel too. I think that in all these I have not been different than the huge huge majority of RFF members, whose interest is varied too.
The hooligans' gospel
Since I became a member I have seen RFF at distress as well as gaining strength. Jorge founded it, gave a great push forwards and later Stephen enhanced this website to levels of richness of contents and membership inflow hardly we could imagine few years ago. RFF has been a true succesfull enterprise since its inception. I am proud of having given my grain of sand as every member has.
In my personal opinion, it is precisely the success of RFF what motivates more and more self declared personalities, hardly known beyond their relatives and friends, a hardship to ignore it. So they either pour their venom from the outside, or pass by to release it inside. The script: RFF is a gear talk site. Silly gear talk site.
The internal problem
What astonishes me at this point, is the easyness with which veteran members can keep quiet, while others even join the feast, taking issue with me instead of the contents. They are of course free to criticize RFF now, yesterday or tomorrow, but joining a bunch of hooligans hijacking a thread for doing so, is more than an assesment of lack of character.
Why I call them a bunch of Brittish stadium hooligans ? Because no levity can fade the action of hijacking a thread, out of disagreement. Rather I should had call them a bunch of intellectual cowards deluding themselves they are "artists" - but it is more or less the same.
Now, why it is that bad that veteran members keep quiet when gear talk is attacked ? As you have seen, I myself have no special problem to stand alone against all the bunch - after all their total weight is more apparent than real, but we have all the time new people as well as less new people who should not be intimidated to speak about whatever they like to.
The bunch of hooligans that consolidated at this thread under the mask of "art" - are an intimidating clique taking bad advantage of the formal freedom of speech. This is not the task of the moderators, because the attack is subtle. But if more members cannot stand up and defend RFF good traditions, our common home will start to crumble.
Cheers,
Ruben
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FrankS
Registered User
Ruben, if this were a party, we would move across the room and avoid these characters. I suggest that the best approach is to do the same on RFF, as we hope they ignore the gear threads that they feel are beneath them. It seems that some are motivated to post by their egos, and display their superiority and genius by attempting to put down others.
Gumby
Veteran
Who are you to cast judgement on everyone else, amigo? That is what brings sites like RFF down! One would think that you'd be a little more relaxed after having a nice weekend. Try smiling and laughing a little more.
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