RFF Classified Guidelines Revised

Well, this is Stephen's forum and he can do with it as he pleases; rules and all :D That said, I watch and wait and see who sells in the classifieds - those regular members, I have no concern with - the odd member who only has a few posts but has been around a while, I'll ask references from, those with 0 posts and just joined a couple months back I'll mention that references may be a good idea but I'll avoid buying from.

Stephen's not implementing any rules and, as I said, his forum, his rules - all I know is there's still a $5 fee (which is inexpensive compared to Fred Miranda which charges $25 per year - depending on how much gear you sell annually) per sale that goes to "someone" (either Jorge or Stephen) at the end of the day so limiting who can sell would not be in their financial interest, especially if they're running and paying for a busy forum such as this one :)

Cheers,
Dave
 
limits can be imposed by the buyers.
if you don't want people selling who have less than 30 posts then just don't buy from people with less than 30 posts.

buyer beware...
 
I've noticed alot of sellers recently with zero (0) posts. Makes you wonder. I always pass on these opportunities.
 
Groovy thread

Groovy thread

"Frankly, it makes you sound like you have an immediate and personal familiarity with mind-altering drugs, and causes others to give very little credence to your thoughts."

LOL. Oldoc, you have a way with words.
 
I bought my Noctilux here at RFF from a member with at that time quite low posting count (I had actually never seen any post from him before I bought that lens) and it turned out to be one of the smoothest and safest transactions ever. :) Interestingly, most of the gear I have sold here (and that was a lot) was bought by members who just joined to be able to PM me and there was never any posting from them.

"Buyer beware" and using Paypal is a better approach than minimum posting count or membership time, IMHO.
 
Hello All,

I'm the offending party here in the deal involving Michael.

I have privately apologised to Michael for backing out of the deal. It is clearly the wrong thing to do.

Michael, my apologies again.

Tony
 
CameraQuest said:
Thanks to some recent problems, RFF Classifieds have been revised as follows:

2) PAYMENTS to Seller: Paypal and postal money orders are good ways to make payment and have some recourse if the item is not as advertised or not received. It is strongly recommended that buyers do NOT make payment by bank wire transfer or Western Union, as this allows the buyer little recourse if there are problems. Sellers may not require payment by bank wire transfer or Western Union.

Thanks
Stephen
Click to expand...
These are reasonable propositions, however I want to make a few points. Wire transfers are very common in Europe where banks tend to be considerably more small-customer friendly. Here in the US they are expensive, often a hassle, and yes, sometimes a vehicle for fraud. PayPal offers little protection for the buyer or seller. PayPal "buyer protection" applies to the seller and to purchases made through eBay only. There was a time early in the life of PayPal where this protection was for all usage. It has limitations, even with eBay purchases however. I regard it primarily as a marketing gimmick. For some reason the concept of "buyer protection" for PayPal outside of eBay seems to persist, a tribute to PayPal's savvy marketing.

If a buyer uses a credit card to pay through PayPal the credit card charge can be reversed by an unhappy or fraudulent buyer regardless of what PayPal wants. This is one reason PayPal tries to dissuade the use of credit cards. This is a great danger for sellers taking PayPal for expensive items - they can lose everything in a chargeback and it has happened to many.

USPS Money orders can be cashed if the post office has the funds on hand. This puts cash in the hands of the sellers, so there is little risk for sellers so long as they make sure they can cash them before they ship the goods. USPS Money order fraud is rampant, so I recommend cashing the MO first!

Western Union transfers, like most other payment systems have been savaged by the PayPal/eBay marketeers since they compete with PayPal. What is rarely pointed out however is that they are perfectly safe for the sellers since cash is put in their hands and quickly. Western Union is most useful when selling to individuals in countries that have broken postal systems and are risky to ship to, or where the banking systems are underdeveloped (and generally both). This affords those individuals who can buy in those countries that possibility when otherwise they could not (assuming they are willing to accept the risk and expense). This is a common money transfer system in the third world, where cash is still king, and individuals are generally accepting of it.

In summary, there is no current payment system that can protect both parties. All systems either share risk or slant risk asymmetrically to the buyer or seller. Trust is therefore the most important element. The greater the amount of money that is changing hands the greater that element of trust should be. Personally I have a HIGH level of trust in members here, almost without exception.
 
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Perhaps it would be revealing to canvass as many members as possible to see just how frequent classified issues are. Judging from what I can tell, most members have not had an issue. That would be my opinion, or hope. Maybe trust is a thing best kept under wraps these days: I really don't want to believe that. I have had one other deal canceled, with a member well-respected here. It was handled very differently, and we are still friends, and I email HIM about his opinion, even as recently as this week.
I don't any more know what the answer is than I understand JohnM's point in his contribution to this thread (other than taking a backhanded swipe at me and several others here, undeserved) but I do know that I plan on selling two or three things soon, once I find a nice 50lux preaspherical. It is a little refreshing to be considered a "newbie poster" or newbie at anything when you are in your 50's, so I'll take it in a complementary manner. We all need to keep this sort of event in mind when we sell or buy.
I do respect tonys for his response: it takes more character to admit wrong than it does to "blow it off". I'd hate to think everyone here has been burned here before. I think Stephen would have written a far different OP if this were the case.
 
tonys said:
Hello All,

I'm the offending party here in the deal involving Michael.

I have privately apologised to Michael for backing out of the deal. It is clearly the wrong thing to do.

Michael, my apologies again.

Tony
Click to expand...

Tony,
Good on you to man up in public.

--(another) michael
 
Thanks Michael,

Owning up was the least I could do.

What I did was wrong.

The whole system breaks down if people engage in this fashion.

I thank Michael "Oldoc" for giving me a good old fashioned "kick up the backside".

I wont be doing it again.

Regards,

Tony
 
Looking back at my previous experiences here at RFF, I have been involved in (and have been guilty of making) deals just to find out that either the seller or buyer having a change in circumstances (or remorse) and asking to back out.

I think the most important thing is to try and contact the counterpart in a prompt, courteous and professional manner. What ever happens, one has to make sure that all funds are repaid accordingly in a timely manner.

I was the "other guilty party" in Michaels' other experience, but I am grateful that things worked out for both of us.

I have also had sellers changing their mind on the sale after I have paid the agreed $$$ amount. Yes, I was disappointed (just the same way as I have disappointed others).

At the end of the day, I see that no-deal-made (assuming that neither party has lost anything) is collectively much better than a regrettable deal.
 
What's the difference between paying with paypall or bank transfer?
I'm selling some stuff in the classifieds and i don't have paypall. Bank transfer at least in the netherlands is a pretty normal way to pay.
 
All but one deal I've made through the classifieds has been perfect, even with those of low post count. A simple request for and checking of some references can go a long way. Wire transfers involving Europe and the US can be a bit tiresome if one doesn't live in a city- my local bank never managed to get it to work in one case. And there are occasionally the immensely frustrating troubles with shipping- eh nobbylon? In my experience, every case, even with difficulties, everything has remained friendly- not something I can say about ebay. And here I've actually spoken with sellers & buyers on the phone, I consider that a plus.

Having been on the seller side of a bad transaction I'm now more careful than ever to be sure I've got everything right before I hit "Place This Ad".
 
From what I've seen, sour deals, either here or on FM etc are like plane crashes... you only hear about the ones that go down in flames, the millions that make it there safely every year never make the headlines. I trust this site and others more than I'll ever trust eBay even IF paypall protects ebay. On the whole you're buying from people that:

A) generally know all the ins and outs of what they're selling and can identify faults in items an ebayer would put "10/10 MINT!!" on.

B) want to continue using this service to buy and sell, as we've seen the bad apples get exposed pretty quickly and get the boot

C) eBay is walmart, this is your local swap meet only bigger... we're a community with a face, names, history and a vested interest in not being ripped off ourselves. I've always been afraid that this and other sites would become food for the rampant scams/frauds/thieves that frequent eBay/Kijiji/Craigslist etc but it seems to continue not happenning and I'm really happy about that.
 
Some people get very angry over lots of things. Some couldn't be angered over much of anything. You can't tell from reading their posts WHICH is the case. To think you can implies a greater degree of knowledge than any of us actually has in our lives. I think the lesson here is to read what is written carefully, and not try make too many assumptions about what others' thoughts or emotions might be. To make assumptions, and come to conclusions based on them, often makes us look very bad, very unfair, or very foolish and intolerant of the feelings of others. Would ask the post even mentioning the possibility of Tony Rose being involved in a bad deal (by mistake, obviously) be removed by moderator.
 
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oldoc said:
Some people get very angry over lots of things. Some coukdn't be angered over much of anything. You can't tell from reading their posts WHICH is the case. To think you can implies a greater degree of knowledge than any of us actually has in our lives. I think the lesson here is to read what is written carefully, and not try make too many assumptions about what others' thoughts or emotions might be. To make assumptions, and come to conclusions based on them, often makes us look very bad, very unfair, or very foolish and intolerant of the feelings of others.
Click to expand...
Like telling others to go to hell?
 
Clarification on the rule change:

"2) PAYMENTS to Seller: Paypal and postal money orders are good ways to make payment and have some recourse if the item is not as advertised or not received. It is strongly recommended that buyers do NOT make payment by bank wire transfer or Western Union, as this allows the buyer little recourse if there are problems. Sellers may not require payment by bank wire transfer or Western Union."

The last sentence: does this mean sellers CANNOT require payment by bank wire or Western Union?
 
Now that you mention it, yes.
But "chill out,Dude" or, more directly, "you're just angry because...." come to mind just as much, or more.
Because you can THINK some things without SAYING them.
My practice of buying and selling will change here, without question. There has been a good deal of important information exchanged here.
Then there are the other posts...
 
I would agree with David that Paypal is not foolproof - outside of Ebay there's little that can be done - after all, Paypal is in it for Paypal - they don't give two sh*ts about the guy/girl who's lost $100 on a purchase if they didn't buy via Ebay.

I have offered and informed, for all those in Canada, to use Interac Email Transfer - a service offered by most of the major Canadian banks ( http://www.interac.ca/consumers/productsandservices_ol_emt.php ):
BMO Bank of Montreal
CIBC
Prospera Credit Union
RBC Royal Bank of Canada
Scotiabank
TD Canada Trust

Costs are less to the seller (who usually absorbs the excessive PayPal fee) and the money is received almost immediately INTO THE SELLERS BANK ACCOUNT (unlike PayPal). Because of that I usually cut a bit better of a deal (be it shipping via express shipping or a reduction in the cost of the item) with the buyer.

There are a lot of options out there - PayPal may be the most widely known but it's far from the "perfect" option for many folks :)

Cheers,
Dave
 
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