sanmich
Veteran
It seems indeed that trust is the most valuable thing here.
I think the feedback system is not very active.
I have no real idea how to improve it, but a real, rich enough feedback would really do the trick in terms of knowing who you are dealing with.
For example, you could learn that a certain person is not extremely careful when examining the gear he sells, but is a perfect gentleman when it comes to solve the issue (happened to me more than once). You could chosoe to go further in your questions with such a seller, or chose not to take chances if it's international etc...
A detailed feedback with different parameters would really make the place safer and nicer IMHO.
And Michael, I'm sure the whole experience was not very pleasant, but freeing some steam over a forum is usually not very helpful and turns the whole atmosphere (if everyone feels free to call other by names and advise other on places to visit) into a boxing ring.
In my book, you have not complained about a problem or argue about it, but simply been rude and insulting to Tony and Akiva.
I think the feedback system is not very active.
I have no real idea how to improve it, but a real, rich enough feedback would really do the trick in terms of knowing who you are dealing with.
For example, you could learn that a certain person is not extremely careful when examining the gear he sells, but is a perfect gentleman when it comes to solve the issue (happened to me more than once). You could chosoe to go further in your questions with such a seller, or chose not to take chances if it's international etc...
A detailed feedback with different parameters would really make the place safer and nicer IMHO.
And Michael, I'm sure the whole experience was not very pleasant, but freeing some steam over a forum is usually not very helpful and turns the whole atmosphere (if everyone feels free to call other by names and advise other on places to visit) into a boxing ring.
In my book, you have not complained about a problem or argue about it, but simply been rude and insulting to Tony and Akiva.
PhotoMat
Well-known
On potentially risky transactions, I use a credit card when paying via PayPal as opposed to a transfer from my bank account as an added layer of protection, . I've purchased some high-ticket items and have gotten some great deals from sellers on Ebay with low feedback numbers simply because others have been reluctant to bid because of low feedback. You have to start somewhere. Making several banal posts on an online forum doesn't necessarily make one an honorable person. As a buyer, it is my responsibility to conduct a little due diligence on my part. As a seller, I try to establish a clear and helpful line of communication with buyers that extends beyond the sale. That being said, we always take a gamble when we buy online, and for the most part, people are honest and things proceed as planned.
oldoc
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The question is, though, what are the markers for "potentially risky" transactions. That is what I am now struggling, not insulting, with. I have to admit, I must be somewhat blessed: I have had 215 positive feedbacks on ebay both as a buyer and a seller, which admittedly is relatively a small sample. I have sold a number of things successfully here, and bought some nice things here as well, making friends all the way along. It came as a surprise to me that PayPal is not as safe as some say it is purported. That is based primarily on a lack of problems, mostly.
Yes, I have had small items broken and refunded, even though it was the shipping company who carried the blame. You hear about scams, etc. on ebay when you read this forum, but there again, I haven't seen this in roughly 230 transactions.
I admit I am uncertain how to recognize the riskier ones, unless I get an email from Nigeria about a cash transfer, or one about a lottery in Australia...
Yes, I have had small items broken and refunded, even though it was the shipping company who carried the blame. You hear about scams, etc. on ebay when you read this forum, but there again, I haven't seen this in roughly 230 transactions.
I admit I am uncertain how to recognize the riskier ones, unless I get an email from Nigeria about a cash transfer, or one about a lottery in Australia...
historicist
Well-known
As far as I know Paypal offers basically no protection outside of ebay and only additional costs to the seller coupled with convenience (especially for transactions where international bank transfers might be expensive).
In England it is very uncommon to pay by bank transfer, while in the EU it is pretty normal - on German ebay anyway, almost no one even accepts Paypal.
I would personally never buy anything in a purely private sale (rff, anywhere) where I could not afford to lose the payment. Anything high value, the amount of money you might save is far outweighed by the reliability of dealing with a reputable shop which will stand behind its products and offer a guarantee. And there are very few things that are so rare and unusual that a month or two of waiting won't turn them up at a reputable shop at a good price.
In England it is very uncommon to pay by bank transfer, while in the EU it is pretty normal - on German ebay anyway, almost no one even accepts Paypal.
I would personally never buy anything in a purely private sale (rff, anywhere) where I could not afford to lose the payment. Anything high value, the amount of money you might save is far outweighed by the reliability of dealing with a reputable shop which will stand behind its products and offer a guarantee. And there are very few things that are so rare and unusual that a month or two of waiting won't turn them up at a reputable shop at a good price.
JohnM
Well-known
I think 215 feedbacks is a pretty solid number -- if I was entering into a deal where the other guy has 215 positive transactions, I'd be comfortable.
As it pertains to RFF, I'm always more comfortable dealing with names that I recognize - I don't "know" anyone here, but if the guy on the other side of the transaction is familiar from his/her posting, I'm more at ease.
The first contact is also important to me. I can't explain it, but sometimes you just a bad vibe from someone - it's completely subjective, but I generally follow my instincts when it happens.
As it pertains to RFF, I'm always more comfortable dealing with names that I recognize - I don't "know" anyone here, but if the guy on the other side of the transaction is familiar from his/her posting, I'm more at ease.
The first contact is also important to me. I can't explain it, but sometimes you just a bad vibe from someone - it's completely subjective, but I generally follow my instincts when it happens.
nobbylon
Veteran
Paypal is a pain in the @@se. I'm in the Nederlands also and bank transfer is the way nearly every transaction I do gets performed.
I've sold quite a lot of high end items on here and requested payment via wire transfer and I've only once had someone not want to do it. No problem, I get it that some people are more cautious than others.
I've also bought some high end kit with transfer on here.
It is about trust and I think it's up to every individual to decide if they are happy or not.
The most difficult logistically was when I sold to Sepiareverb in the US, but between us on the phone we sorted out wire transfer and shipping no problem. Paypal doesn't offer the same protections cross continent outside ebay anyway and I do think Stephen, that you should consider personal agreement between members as an option,
It's a TRUST thing!
bob338
Well-known
should i trust the guy in Russia with 0 posts that has PM'd me three times about buying my M6 in the classifieds and shipping it to a different address in Minnesota?
bob
Perhaps there could be a system of 'trusted sellers/buyers.' I'm not sure how it would be implemented or even if Stephen would be interested in such an idea, but it may be worth a look.
PhotoMat
Well-known
Aside from the obvious scam markers, communication plays a big part in my risk assessment of an online transaction. If I ask specific questions regarding an item, I expect the seller to be equally specific and address each question. If, after a few emails, the seller continues to be vague or unable to directly answer my query, I choose to avoid dealing with the individual. I also judge the quality of the communication -- if the seller conducts himself in an intelligent and professional manner, then things will most likely be O.K. If the seller sounds like a doofus, chances are he probably is.
Regarding feedback and post history, who would you deem as more trustworthy -- a four year member with 100 posts or a four month member with 400 posts? More often than not, it just boils down to your gut feeling. The more you talk with an individual, the better you will get a "feel" for what that person is like.
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Probably not, Bob...
Wish they were all that simple.
How about the person with no posts here but a bag FULL of the best gear you could think of, all aspherical, 35lux, M7, etc., who has "been a member of the photonet community for many years"?
Wish they were all that simple.
How about the person with no posts here but a bag FULL of the best gear you could think of, all aspherical, 35lux, M7, etc., who has "been a member of the photonet community for many years"?
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
Wasn't Bernard Madeoff the highest trusted financier on Wall St before he absconded with $60 Billion? The list goes on...buyer be ware.
Of course, buyer and seller beware. Sure would be nice to have a better (more well known) feedback system. I haven't had any bad deals here, either buying or selling. I did have one seller that was rather flaky (bob338 knows who I'm speaking of) and he was, predictably, a new member. But there was no money loss, and there wasn't a scam of any sort.
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
I sold an M6 on ePrey only to have the $1200 reversed on Christmas eve 2008, two weeks after Paypal had approved the transaction and I had shipped the camera to NYC.
After multiple emails to Paypal and finally phone calls, they told me I had to eat it because I had not requested a signed return card from the buyer (the green one). Insurance and delivery confirmation was not accepted as proof of delivery.
Stunned, I emailed the buyer multiple times and he was reluctant to believe my story at first lthough I included screenshots of the pertinent data. Eventually he followed up and 2 weeks later sent me a check to cover. In total, 5 weeks after I shipped the camera I received pmt. It took him 3 more months to settle with Paypal and get HIS money.
Moral: Dont trust Paypal. Look at Paypal as but one element of the deal.
Curious why they reversed it?
Anything over $250 needs a signature release, delivery confirmation is not good enough. This is all spelled out in the ebay/paypal seller protection guidelines.
Anything over $250 needs a signature release, delivery confirmation is not good enough. This is all spelled out in the ebay/paypal seller protection guidelines.
nobbylon
Veteran
Bob,
did you read over the bit where I said it was up to each individual to decide if they are happy or not?:bang:
j
bob338
Well-known
my first thought with anyone selling a bag full of that kind of gear would be that it's probably stolen.
secondly i would wonder why they weren't selling it over on pnet where they have a track record.
bob
bob338
Well-known
Bob,
did you read over the bit where I said it was up to each individual to decide if they are happy or not?:bang:
j
i understand what you're saying. i'm trying to point out that it is much easier to develop that trust when there are guidelines in place that aren't simple suggestions. right now anyone with $5 can post anything they want on here and keep your money. you really have no recourse if you get screwed other than a very difficult and questionable process with paypal. if you use money orders, you have to involve the postal service and possibly small claims court. if you wire or m/o someone money out of your home country, you'll likely never get it back.
i don't understand the resistance to this 30 days/50 posts idea. what harm would it do anyone? let the creeps take their headaches to another venue...
bob
oldoc
oldoc
Careful, Bob, you might insult someone, too....
bob338
Well-known
i sure don't want to insult anyone. this is by far the best photography website around and i would hate to see it start to resemble pnet or the leica user forum, or whatever it's called.
it is supposed to be a community and i don't consider people selling
a.imaginary gear,
b.their grandfathers precious leica full of fungus, or
c.a 'brand new, 2 rolls i swear!' m7 for $1200
to be part of the community.
i'm not an isolationist by any means, but these ads seem to be 1 step away from being inundated with daily threads asking 'what is this leica i found in my fathers closet worth?'
just my .02
bob
kshapero
South Florida Man
sure, after you have received the money and your bank tells you it is good.