ywenz
Veteran
Brian Sweeney said:
Film is not dead, but it is heading down a path that will eventually make working with film very expensive..
Huck Finn
Well-known
I think that BOTH eBay prices & RFF membership reflect the same thing - an increased interest in rangefinder photography. Cosina may have done more to fuel this than anybody.
I also agree with Peter that increasing Leica prices results in increasing numbers of Leica photogs loking to the used market to meet their equipment needs. Increase demand in the used market & prices rise. Leica increases are now coming every 6 months! And there's no grey market for Leica. As of January 1, the M7 is $3500. It's now almost $1000 more than it was just 2 years ago or so. Lens prices increase as well. A new 50 Summicron is now $1400 vs about $1000 a couple of years ago. 40% increases in 2 years? Insane.
Huck
I also agree with Peter that increasing Leica prices results in increasing numbers of Leica photogs loking to the used market to meet their equipment needs. Increase demand in the used market & prices rise. Leica increases are now coming every 6 months! And there's no grey market for Leica. As of January 1, the M7 is $3500. It's now almost $1000 more than it was just 2 years ago or so. Lens prices increase as well. A new 50 Summicron is now $1400 vs about $1000 a couple of years ago. 40% increases in 2 years? Insane.
Huck
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
With thrift stores it may be that people have already dumped the majority of old gear in a given area. This seems to be what happened locally. The pawn shops locally have also slowed down on the amount of film gear that they are willing to take in because it does not sell. I can't explain prices on oboy but then most can't either. This relatively small site may or may not have influence in the market place but people interested in RF photography sure check here for information before buying. Yes, I believe film photography will get more costly eventually.
Bob
Bob
doubs43
Well-known
Paulbe said:
Hi Paul,
If you grew up in Macon then you're familiar with Coke's Camera, I'm sure. Nice people and I enjoy visiting them whenever I can.
My avatar is cropped from a picture taken by my father sometime around 1950. The attached picture will show it much better. The engine was roughly half way between the towns of Adamstown and Doubs, Maryland, on the Baltimore & Ohio main line going East - West. The engine is headed West, probably to the rail yard at Brunswick but that's only a guess. I scanned the picture from a print so it's not as good as could be gotten from a negative.
I've lived in Byron 18 years and it's home now. If you get down this way, look me up!
Walker
peter_n
Veteran
Couldn't agree more Huck. The prices are becoming truly unreasonable and it is affecting used and also 3rd party lenses. I sold my 21/2.8 Kobalux last year for almost twice what I paid for it about a year and a half previously. I have actually bought a lot recently because I'm afraid we're on a never-ending spiral...Huck Finn said:
Ben Z
Veteran
peter_n said:I'm afraid we're on a never-ending spiral...
I'm afraid the spiral does have an end. The upward spiraling Leica prices will end when the downward spiraling Leica sales hits the ground. At the very least, when (and if) the Digital M makes it's appearance, prices of used Leica film bodies will drop due to lack of demand and a glut on the market. It remains to be seen how many staunch Leica I'll-never-go-digital holdouts with their myriad reasons for liking film better will suddenly and quietly change their tune when there's a digital body that takes their Leica lenses and has that coveted red logo dot.
ywenz
Veteran
Ben Z said:
Not many, I anticipate. Switching over to the Digital M is not simply a matter of changing of the mindset of allowing digital to co-exist in their otherwise film only world. The huge cost to get into a Digital M will be the biggest barrier
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sf
Veteran
then again, lots of trading goes on here, and that may take some of the most passionate RF buyers out of the Eb*y equation - actually lowering the prices. Stuff goes for relatively high prices here, because of the trust factor actually being higher among the serious members and the sense of mutuality - and because buyers and sellers have a good idea of with whom they are trading.
VinceC
Veteran
>>Nikon RF prices have moved down, largely due to the availability of new S3-2000's and even the SP-2005.<<
I think part of the price drop is also due to an increase in supply of the original equipment due to the aging out of the original collectors.
I've been seeing quite a bit of Nikon RF gear landing on EBay recently from estate sales. While some of us may take a treasured RF with us to the grave, in my case that still would leave behind several extra bodies (cameras, not mortal remains) and quite a few lenses to be disposed of.
Nikons have been so heavily collected that most are apparently in little used collections. Once acquired, they aren't often sold. There's also a certain inevitability that the primary collectors of a 50-year-old camera system would primarily be in their 70s and 80s now -- those who were old enough at the time to afford the cameras, as well as those who lusted after them in their photographic youth and later purchased them used when they finally achieved enough means to afford them. But, essentially, after 1960, anyone young who lusted a camera was lusting a Nikon F or a Leica M, with rare exceptions. The Nikon RFs are very much of a generation. Like 1950s cars.
So you've got a double-demographic phenomenon taking place -- the original purchasers of the 1950s -- a large chunk of whom were military people stationed in Asia who bought the "EP" engraved Nikons and just kept them; as well as the collectors who acquired several Nikons at some point in the 1960s, 70s, 80s or later, and who were responsible for driving the prices up so high in the first place. Both of these groups of people are aging out quickly -- the military vets leave behind a single camera with a few lenses, the collectors leave behind a much larger assortment, and all of it is entering the marketplace after being locked up in closets and display cases for a long, long time. On top of that, Nikon in the past five years placed something like 8,000 to 10,000 additional S3s and SPs into the marketplace.
Leica Ms are different, because they have been associated with photographic excellence for so long, by so many people. Lots and lots of people think Leica is top dog in the photography world. So their collector/user base is much deeper and more diverse. I think a good Digital M would likely solidify that for the digital generation.
I think part of the price drop is also due to an increase in supply of the original equipment due to the aging out of the original collectors.
I've been seeing quite a bit of Nikon RF gear landing on EBay recently from estate sales. While some of us may take a treasured RF with us to the grave, in my case that still would leave behind several extra bodies (cameras, not mortal remains) and quite a few lenses to be disposed of.
Nikons have been so heavily collected that most are apparently in little used collections. Once acquired, they aren't often sold. There's also a certain inevitability that the primary collectors of a 50-year-old camera system would primarily be in their 70s and 80s now -- those who were old enough at the time to afford the cameras, as well as those who lusted after them in their photographic youth and later purchased them used when they finally achieved enough means to afford them. But, essentially, after 1960, anyone young who lusted a camera was lusting a Nikon F or a Leica M, with rare exceptions. The Nikon RFs are very much of a generation. Like 1950s cars.
So you've got a double-demographic phenomenon taking place -- the original purchasers of the 1950s -- a large chunk of whom were military people stationed in Asia who bought the "EP" engraved Nikons and just kept them; as well as the collectors who acquired several Nikons at some point in the 1960s, 70s, 80s or later, and who were responsible for driving the prices up so high in the first place. Both of these groups of people are aging out quickly -- the military vets leave behind a single camera with a few lenses, the collectors leave behind a much larger assortment, and all of it is entering the marketplace after being locked up in closets and display cases for a long, long time. On top of that, Nikon in the past five years placed something like 8,000 to 10,000 additional S3s and SPs into the marketplace.
Leica Ms are different, because they have been associated with photographic excellence for so long, by so many people. Lots and lots of people think Leica is top dog in the photography world. So their collector/user base is much deeper and more diverse. I think a good Digital M would likely solidify that for the digital generation.
Huck Finn
Well-known
ywenz said:
Good point! I think that the cost will include not only the body but also new lenses. Not to mention the loss of speed. If someone is used to shooting with a 35 Summilux, where do they turn for something similar on a body with a 1.33 crop factor? Either a 28, for which the fastest speed is currently f/2 or a 24 @ f/2.8.
A further barrier to this transition will be the insecurity of any stability in a digital system. Does anyone really want to go out & purchase a $5000 - $6000 digital body with a 1.33 crop factor, knowing that a full frame sensor may be just around the corner? And does anyone want to invest in those additional expensive lenses for use with the 1.33 crop, not knowing if this is the final word in crop factors?
Leica seems to be saying that they will be developing new wide angle lenses for use with the digital M. I wonder what the price tag on such lenses will be.
peter_n
Veteran
I'm not so sure about this. I'm already digital - I have a film scanner. If I had wanted an expensive digital camera body I would have bought one by now, either an Epson or a Canon. Instead I bought 2 Leica bodies because that's my preference - film cameras.Ben Z said:
R
RML
Guest
Huck Finn said:
That's probably why Leica also announced a new range of lenses.
But we don't knopw for sure whether there'll ever be a FF digital M, do we? And even so. The price will be several times the price of a 1.33x crop digital M. In the end the crop factor doesn't matter really. I'm shooting the R-D1 with its 1.5x crop. Yes, I want a 15mm for my wide work but I see myself shooting a lot with 40mm, 50mm and 85mm. Before the R-D1 I was mostly shooting 25mm, 40mm and 50mm. My shooting shifted (and even more when you count the crop factor) from superwide-normal to normal-shorttele. It'll go back and forth I reckon over time.
Leica seems to be saying that they will be developing new wide angle lenses for use with the digital M. I wonder what the price tag on such lenses will be.
It'll probably a shock to the old wallet.
Ben Z
Veteran
ywenz said:
That wasn't my suggestion. I was suggesting that they will completely devest themselves of film bodies and go digital. I'm at the poorer end of most of the Leica customers the dealers tell me about, and if I were to sell my 2 "bargain" M6s, my M4 and M3 plus my 90 Summicron and 90 T-E (wouldn't need them with the 1.3x crop) I'd be right there at about $6000.
Peter I too have film scanners and plan to resist getting an expensive digital body, especially from Leica because I'm not sure they'll be around to support and fix it in the future. I didn't say everyone would jump off the film ship as soon as the digital M came into port, I just speculated that we don't know how many will. I'm not clairvoyant, I'd yield the point only to someone who truly is.
As to the loss of wide-angle coverage, there would be no absolute need for someone to spend megabucks on new Leica ultra-wides. There are plenty of used 21mm Leica lenses, which becomes sort of a 28. Wider than 28 are seldom-used lenses for most people, but the Voitlander 15 approximates a 21, and the 12mm approximates the 15. As to loss of speed, with digitals like the Canon 20D and 5D ISO 1600 and even 3200 are there and look way, way better than any film at that speed. There's where I do see where you might have a very valid point though, given the disappointing reports of how the DMR performs at high ISOs.
Given Leica's financial resources and the speed at which they have been proceeding thus far with digital I wouldn't worry that any kind of meaningful upgrade, much less a FF sensor, would be along any time soon. Certainly it's not even fathomable to me that Leica's product timetable will resemble that of Canon or Nikon.
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ivzhao
a pro lottery winner
ywenz said:
have you considered how many percent of the 3900 people work in the local camera store, or a ebay store? i bet it would be really really high. at least i know a couple, who dont post as often but definitely browse through the froum as part of their jobs.
and consider the film camera, especially the RF market is mostly effected these people, no wonder why RFF has the power to affect the market, at least i believe so.
back alley
IMAGES
good point...i know we have at least one ebay seller who is a lurking member here.. and a few smaller sellers also.