Rinsing film, does temperature really matter?

[lshofstra]

So you're supposed to rinse film at approximately the developing temperature to prevent the emulsion cracking up (called reticulation, I think). When I first started out developing film (about 35 years ago, when information was a lot harder to come by) I didn't know and consequently never did this; always used water straight from the cold tap. Never saw anything out of order, not then and not now looking at old negs. Nevertheless I try to use water of approx. 68F, but it's a pain. No warm water in my darkroom, and in the bathroom it's hard to get a continuous flow at the right temperature. So by now I'm wondering if it really matters. Any of you had any problems using cold water? If so, would gradually lowering temperature be a solution? I'm assuming lowering the temperature quickly is what does the damage, if any....

 

[Mike Richards]

Ilford Procedure

Ilford Procedure

Hard to get a scientific manufacturer's position on this, but I note that Ilford recommends that the water be within 5C (9F) of the other chemicals, for example. Like you, I never had any problem with tap water, and only used a physiological thermometer (my finger).

I've tried the Ilford water saving rinse procedure, and it seems to work ok, so I switched over to it. You may want to try it (it assumes you use a rapid fixer where hypo clear is not necessary). The procedure is fill with water, invert (slowly) 5 times, discard, fill again with water, invert 10 times, discard, fill again with water, invert 20 times, discard. That's it except for your photo flo step, if you use it. To be cautious, I added a 4th time with 30 inversions. This requires no running water, and only 4 tank fills of water that can be kept close to the temperature you want.

 

[david b]

I keep all the temperatures as close as possible.

And I too use a modified Ilford wash method.

10 - 20 - 40 - 10

 

[stuken]

Sudden exposure to very cold water can cause the emulsion to crank, and do wierd things. As can putting in in very hot water. It's nonsense to try and keep your rinse temp at 68 the whole time, a little variation won't matter.

 

[fbf]

I don't use Ilford rapid fixer and I do use hypo clearing agent. Will the method work? I usually use running water for 8-10 mins and discard,refill water every 4-5 mins. It works for me but saving water is important as well.

 

[bmattock]

Large differences in temperature can cause 'reticulation', which is a fancy way of saying that the emulsion begins to lift off the film base and basically 'wrinkle up'. It happens microscopically, so you see it when you enlarge or print. It has to do not just with the difference in temperature, but the abruptness of the change.

Best to keep things as close to the same temperature as you can. No way of saying how much your film will tolerate before reticulating - each film is different.

 

[MikeL]

I've never understood the running water for long periods, other than that's way it's done. Just like with developing, you just need to maintain a diffusion gradient for the chemicals. Letting sit a few minutes with occasional agitation, dumping, let sit a few minutes, dumping, and so on should do it, at least to my thinking.

 

[SolaresLarrave]

Rapid fixer makes Hypoclearing agent unnecesary? I didn't know this! 🙂

One learns every day here... Thanks!

BTW, I only make an effort to use 68° C with developer. Usually, the rest comes out some 4 degrees cooler and seems to be irrelevant.

 

[Trius]

Sudden temperature change can cause reticulation, that is for sure. But there is more going on with temperature. Extended wet time increases the chance the gelatin will swell, and this can affect grain and acutance. No, I have no controlled test results to prove this, and yes, it is something I read. But it makes sense and I believe it to be true, so I maintain a constant temperature as much as possible, including wash temperature. If Ilford maintains their regimen achieves archival condition, then I don't go further because to do so would extend wet time.

Some films that are unhardened (I think Efke falls into this category) might be more subject to these issues, and certainly more subject to issues with temperatures higher than 68F, as that is the temperature at which unhardened gelatine begins to melt.

 

[Roger Hicks]

You don't need hypo clear with any film, regardless of how you fix it: washing is very quick. It's a mixture of desorption and diffusion. Hardening fixers extend wash times dramatically.

Modern films are MUCH tougher than old ones when it comes to reticulation; the last revision of Tri-X marked the last film from a major manufacturer to knock this problem on the head. This is also why hardening fixers are not needed with normal processing of modern films from major manufacturers.

Very large variations can cause reticulation but if you want to see how hard this is to get nowadays, TRY to create it (process at 24C/75F and rinse with ice water). It''s quite hard to get.

There is a theory that grain and acutance are affected but I know of no reputable research offering proof either way. It may be highly film-dependent.

Washing is less effective at low temperatures and the old rule of thumb is to double wash times at low temperatures. The only trouble is, no-one agrees on what constitutes a 'low temperature': less than 61F/16C, 55F/13C, 45F/9C...

Cheers,

R.

 

[Trius]

Roger: I'm going to ask Ron Mowery about the grain/acutance question.

 

[bmattock]

Roger: I'm going to ask Ron Mowery about the grain/acutance question.

We should get them together and make them fight.

 

[Trius]

LOL! Truly, I have no clue if wet time or temp affects grain clumping, etc. I figure Ron is a good, unbiased source of information. If he doesn't know, he won't make it up! 😉

 

[nikon_sam]

The only thing I've done differently in developing film lately is this...
When using D-76 (with Neopan 400 & Tmax 400) I get the pink/purple haze in the rinse water if I let it sit for 5-10 minutes (have not seen this haze with Rodinal) lately I have raised the rinse temp to about 75 - 80 degrees...I let the film sit in the tank for 10 minutes and then dump it then do it again...
With the higher temp rinse I've seen the clearing of this haze on the film clear up much faster than if I just use that's coming out of the tap (maybe low 60's)

 

[Keith]

Ok ... I'll throw in a question here that always has me wondering. Pre soaking before adding the developer ... some say do it some of course say don't bother. I've tried both ways and haven't detected any difference in the end result! If it is a recommended procedure I would be curious to know why?

 

[Roger Hicks]

Roger: I'm going to ask Ron Mowery about the grain/acutance question.

Ilford's response, last time I asked them:

"It's possible, but we've never seen convincing evidence of it."

I suspect Ron will say something similar. After all, none of us (Ilford, Ron, me) has an axe to grind. FWIW, I do my hard-water washes at close to processing temperature, and my final distilled-water wash and distilled-water/wetting agent rinse at ambient, having either shaken the reels dry at ambient (stainless reels) or transferred to stainless at ambient (plastic reels).

Cheers,

R.

 

[Graham Line]

Ok ... I'll throw in a question here that always has me wondering. Pre soaking before adding the developer ... some say do it some of course say don't bother. I've tried both ways and haven't detected any difference in the end result! If it is a recommended procedure I would be curious to know why?

I don't think presoaking makes a bit of difference with contemporary 35mm films. This may not have been the case with thicker, larger format emulsions in the past and I do have a friend shooting 4x5 (Fuji B&W, iirc) who insists that it improves his results by giving more even development.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Ok ... I'll throw in a question here that always has me wondering. Pre soaking before adding the developer ... some say do it some of course say don't bother. I've tried both ways and haven't detected any difference in the end result! If it is a recoomended procedure I would be curious to know why?

Dear Keith,

The Ilford Party Line:

Theoretically disadvantageous, in practice almost certainly irrelevant, so do it if you feel you have to.

It can in theory wash out some useful additives, but usually, it seems it doesn't. I've never done it, except with E6 for temperature.

My view:

One of those things 'experts' make up to make themselves feel superior. If a film needs a pre-soak, the manufacturer/distributor will recommend it -- and even then it is disputable (in the case of films sold by those who do not manufacture them) whether or not it's the 'experts' again.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Keith]

Dear Keith,

The Ilford Party Line:

Theoretically disadvantageous, in practice almost certainly irrelevant, so do it if you feel you have to.

It can in theory wash out some useful additives, but usually, it seems it doesn't. I've never done it, except with E6 for temperature.

My view:

One of those things 'experts' make up to make themselves feel superior. If a film needs a pre-soak, the manufacturer/distributor will recommend it -- and even then it is disputable (in the case of films sold by those who do not manufacture them) whether or not it's the 'experts' again.

Cheers,

R.

Ah that's interesting because the first time I did it with Neopan 400 I noticed the water came out with a purplish tinge which made me decide not to bother for that exact possibility ... that maybe I was removing something that was meant to be there for the developing process!

 

[Ade-oh]

I've always kept stop bath and fixer within a couple of degrees of the developer but never worried that much about the wash temperature. 5-10 minutes under cold running water while I make a cup of tea seems to do the job, and negatives from 30 years ago when I first started developing my own seem perfectly OK now. I haven't ever persuaded a film to reticulate either.

I must try the Ilford wash method: it seems like a lot less bother.