Robert Capa wasn't Robert Capa

[Rangefinderfreak]

When figuring out on what happened to Poland ( and other central European states) This might help you Non Europeans... We learned it all in the school already...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/16/europe-history-time-lapse_n_1520724.html

 

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

Because of their sucess in choosen profession and also because of their "keeping it all in the family". They became an envy of the natives... the reason for "anti semitism".

This is yet another anti-semitic myth, I'm afraid. Most jews in the "Pale of Settlement" were as heartbreakingly poor as their gentile neighbours.

The depressing truth is that Polish jews lived in amicable circumstances with the other ethnic groups from the 11th to the 17th century. Then the Polish Commonwealth started to break up and the Jews, along with several other groups such as the Roman Catholics, were targeted by Bohdan Khmelnytsky and his merry Cossacks.

When Poland was broken up by Russia and the Austrian-Hungarian empire, the Russian Orthodox Church sponsored increasingly anti-semitic views, almost certainly due to the same thought processes as those found in the Tribunal del Santo Oficio de la Inquisición and the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei.

 

[peterm1]

This is yet another anti-semitic myth, I'm afraid. Most jews in the "Pale of Settlement" were as heartbreakingly poor as their gentile neighbours.

The depressing truth is that Polish jews lived in amicable circumstances with the other ethnic groups from the 11th to the 17th century. Then the Polish Commonwealth started to break up and the Jews, along with several other groups such as the Roman Catholics, were targeted by Bohdan Khmelnytsky and his merry Cossacks.

When Poland was broken up by Russia and the Austrian-Hungarian empire, the Russian Orthodox Church sponsored increasingly anti-semitic views, almost certainly due to the same thought processes as those found in the Tribunal del Santo Oficio de la Inquisición and the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei.

I dont think the quote you take exception to is necessarily anti semitic nor necessarily wholly a myth. And I certainly don't think Rangefinder Freak is being antisemitic by saying this. (Although I don't think you are saying this either).

But its probably accurate to say its a generalisation that as you say is not characteristic of the circumstances of all Jews. Nor of the reasons for all forms of anti semitism - not many of them very logical and many of them very contradictory. There were many reasons for anti semitism. Jews were hated both because some were rich and successful - and some Jews were hated because many were poor and "dirty". Jews were also hated because they were a separate and distinct ethnic group and because in some cases they integrated 'too well" and were indistinguishable from the rest of the population (and hence potentially subversive). Antisemitism is a strange phenomenon and is like a antibiotic resistant bacteria - very persistent and hard to deal with.

My mother's family were Sephardic Jews (ie Spanish) and from the beginning of the Spanish diaspora in 1492 moved to places all around the Mediterranean, then to Holland then England and finally to Australia in much the way that Rangefinder Freak suggests - sometimes because of prejudice and changing political circumstances. And sometimes just in search of a better life.

 

[sanmich]

I dont think the quote you take exception to is necessarily anti semitic nor necessarily wholly a myth. And I certainly don't think Rangefinder Freak is being antisemitic by saying this. (Although I don't think you are saying this either).

Sorry, Peter, but I disagree.
Freak's post is full of cliches, gross misrepresentation of history and generalizations about Jews that are the base of antisemitism (and not "antisemitism", dammit).
He's obviously in denial, but a couple of his last post in the terrorism thread and this one makes it very clear to me.

 

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

I dont think the quote you take exception to is necessarily anti semitic nor necessarily wholly a myth. And I certainly don't think Rangefinder Freak is being antisemitic by saying this. (Although I don't think you are saying this either).

Sorry, Peter, but I disagree.

It's a very emotive subject and I find the "cool" style of internet posting prone to misinterpretation.

It's further complicated by the way in which anti-semitism has been touted as something on its own, when it's just one form of the racial hatred that has been practiced on and by groups of humans all over the world, throughout history.

As an aside, I believe that the history of the Polish Commonwealth should be compulsory material for every child in every country. For more than six centuries, a plethora of different groups managed to live on peaceful terms with one another. Perhaps, if more people knew it could be done, we'd manage it more often.

 

[peterm1]

Maybe we should not go down this path - it will just disrupt what otherwise has been a very interesting thread. Lets all leave the subject of Capa and Taro's Jewishness and focus on other stuff about their relationship, life and work.

 

[rodinal]

Maybe we should not go down this path - it will just disrupt what otherwise has been a very interesting thread. Lets all leave the subject of Capa and Taro's Jewishness and focus on other stuff about their relationship, life and work.

+1

OTOH Peter, don't you feel a bit like the Rube Goldberg of nationalities? 😉

 

[sanmich]

Let's put it back on track:

I think the interesting part is the part so many women have played in the artistic production of so many great artists.
I have very few notions of art history, but let's just mention Frida Kahlo (Rivera), Tina Modotti (Weston), George Sand (Chopin), Camille Claudel (Rodin) etc.
Some (like Claudel) are now, I think, actually credited for some of of their lover's pieces.
Unfortunately, the situation in science was no better...

 

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

Maybe we should not go down this path - it will just disrupt what otherwise has been a very interesting thread. Lets all leave the subject of Capa and Taro's Jewishness and focus on other stuff about their relationship, life and work.

I can understand your view on this but the discussion of the invention of "Robert Capa" seems to me incomplete, unless we place it in the context of two middle class, Eastern European jews during the 1930s.

From what I understand of my own family history, the pressure on European jews might have decreased from time to time and place to place but it was ever present.

As a prominent example: Benjamin Disraeli might have been the prime minister of England but he was always a Jew and therefor never quite right, so far as the British political class and the landed gentry were concerned. He had converted to Anglian Christianity at the age of 12, otherwise he could never have sat in Parliament, because he couldn't have taken the oath of allegiance, which was required from all members. Britain was, at the time, regarded as a moderate country, when it came to anti-semitism, it being more fashionable to hate Roman Catholics, and especially Irish Roman Catholics.

In my opinion, the whole point of "Robert Capa" was that he could sell pictures and reports to European outlets, much more easily than those jews Endre Friedmann and Gerta Pohorylle.

 

[peterm1]

I can understand your view on this but the discussion of the invention of "Robert Capa" seems to me incomplete, unless we place it in the context of two middle class, Eastern European jews during the 1930s.

From what I understand of my own family history, the pressure on European jews might have decreased from time to time and place to place but it was ever present.

As a prominent example: Benjamin Disraeli might have been the prime minister of England but he was always a Jew and therefor never quite right, so far as the British political class and the landed gentry were concerned. He had converted to Anglian Christianity at the age of 12, otherwise he could never have sat in Parliament, because he couldn't have taken the oath of allegiance, which was required from all members. Britain was, at the time, regarded as a moderate country, when it came to anti-semitism, it being more fashionable to hate Roman Catholics, and especially Irish Roman Catholics.

In my opinion, the whole point of "Robert Capa" was that he could sell pictures and reports to European outlets, much more easily than those jews Endre Friedmann and Gerta Pohorylle.

Yes I do agree with you that its true that its not possible to fully understand Capa and Taro without understanding how they were affected by being Jewish in central Europe at that time in history. But my point is rather that the subject is so touchy that it seems to have the definite potential to derail what is an interesting thread.

 

[Sparrow]

Yes I do agree with you that its true that its not possible to fully understand Capa and Taro without understanding how they were affected by being Jewish in central Europe at that time in history. But my point is rather that the subject is so touchy that it seems to have the definite potential to derail what is an interesting thread.

... personally I think Capa's detractors are more motivated by his politics and the natural bias that created, rather than by his religion.

 

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

personally I think Capa's detractors are more motivated by his politics and the natural bias that created, rather than by his religion.

I think you are right.

However, I don't think that would necessarily be the case, in that place and time, if he was "Endre Friedmann".

 

[peterm1]

... personally I think Capa's detractors are more motivated by his politics and the natural bias that created, rather than by his religion.

I was not exactly alluding to that. Rather, I meant that Capa and Taro were products of their time and their upbringing. Including the fact that they were both Jewish. This middle class Jewish upbringing on both their parts contributed to the way they led their lives and to their philosophies on life. It is impossible that it could not have affected their values and behaviors.

But there were other things as well. Capa also flirted with communism whilst still a young man in Hungary and while he never joined the party (which he thought was too silly for words) he was like many young people into radical ideas - he left Hungary after being roughed up and warned-off by a Police Chief who basically threatened him with imprisonment or worse if he did not disappear. Taro was a committed leftist. This background led them ultimately to Spain in support of the Republicans. And the rest is history as they say.

(As an aside something similar happened to my dad but for different reasons. At the end of WW2 he was a young man of about 16-17 in Budapest. He was an enterprising young fellow and got involved in a black market operation in order to survive. Basically smuggling American cigarettes into Hungary. After a while things went badly as he was caught by the local Gendarmes who roughed him up, stole his merchandise and told him to disappear from the country or pay the price. He left and found his way to Australia - eventually resulting in........me. Probably one reason I feel some affinity for Capa but that's another story).

So no, the evidence does not really support an argument that the name changes were to sound less Jewish particularly. Rather it was a marketing ploy. By creating this fiction of a great photographer Robert Capa, they found that they could sell their work for much more money and earn a decent living. This is clearly what Capa and Taro claimed at the time and in Capa's case, subsequently.

Of course changing names to fit in was not unusual including amongst Jews who migrated. Today we tend to live in a multicultural world where differences of this sort are better tolerated (at least on the face of it). But I know that it was far from uncommon for Jews who migrated to other countries to adopt a name that sounded more like the local inhabitants. We know that Capa wanted to appeal to the American market and wanted a name that sounded more American because he was explicit in saying this. He would have known that name changing was a common phenomenon amongst migrants to the US from Central and Eastern Europe. So who knows, there may have been some small element of that, which influenced his thinking

 

[Sparrow]

I was not exactly alluding to that. Rather, I meant that Capa and Taro were products of their time and their upbringing. Including the fact that they were both Jewish. This middle class Jewish upbringing on both their parts contributed to the way they led their lives and to their philosophies on life. It is impossible that it could not have affected their values and behaviors.

But there were other things as well. Capa also flirted with communism whilst still a young man in Hungary and while he never joined the party (which he thought was too silly for words) he was like many young people into radical ideas - he left Hungary after being roughed up and warned-off by a Police Chief who basically threatened him with imprisonment or worse if he did not disappear. Taro was a committed leftist. This background led them ultimately to Spain in support of the Republicans. And the rest is history as they say.

(As an aside something similar happened to my dad but for different reasons. At the end of WW2 he was a young man of about 16-17 in Budapest. He was an enterprising young fellow and got involved in a black market operation in order to survive. Basically smuggling American cigarettes into Hungary. After a while things went badly as he was caught by the local Gendarmes who roughed him up, stole his merchandise and told him to disappear from the country or pay the price. He left and found his way to Australia - eventually resulting in........me. Probably one reason I feel some affinity for Capa but that's another story).

So no, the evidence does not really support an argument that the name changes were to sound less Jewish particularly. Rather it was a marketing ploy. By creating this fiction of a great photographer Robert Capa, they found that they could sell their work for much more money and earn a decent living. This is clearly what Capa and Taro claimed at the time and in Capa's case, subsequently.

Of course changing names to fit in was not unusual including amongst Jews who migrated. Today we tend to live in a multicultural world where differences of this sort are better tolerated (at least on the face of it). But I know that it was far from uncommon for Jews who migrated to other countries to adopt a name that sounded more like the local inhabitants. We know that Capa wanted to appeal to the American market and wanted a name that sounded more American because he was explicit in saying this. He would have known that name changing was a common phenomenon amongst migrants to the US from Central and Eastern Europe. So who knows, there may have been some small element of that, which influenced his thinking

... yes I am aware of their story, and the times in which it happened and still feel the photography is a product of their politics not their faith.

I had a great uncle served with an international brigade who fought Franco as a roman catholic; what do you feel motivated him?

 

[peterm1]

For those who are interested here is an interesting radio interview with Capa from 1947 in which he talks about his past and his book "Slightly Out of Focus". He also throws some light on issues discussed here (although as others have pointed out Capa was a raconteur and loved nothing more than telling a good story). So sometimes he has to be taken with a grain of salt. He certainly does not discuss the role played by Gerda Taro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYe4ynXnqug

 

[rwintle]

He certainly does not discuss the role played by Gerda Taro.

...and this is I think an interesting point. Slightly Out of Focus also avoids discussion of her entirely, although granted it is a recollection of his WWII experience only.

 

[peterm1]

...and this is I think an interesting point. Slightly Out of Focus also avoids discussion of her entirely, although granted it is a recollection of his WWII experience only.

Yes I agree. I think that while Capa certainly loved Taro he understood the power of his myth and was not above doing this. It has often been said that her work was sold as his in the early days - although this seems to have been done with her knowledge and consent and was more for commercial reasons as his name became well known and able to attract good money for them both.

 

[someonenameddavid]

And the BBC, ever the trendy lefties refer to the losing side as "republicans" rather than communists.

David

 

[charjohncarter]

No one, not even me, said you were Jew bashing. You could take that and go jump. There were many reasons people changed their names. The times then were difficult for many people between the wars. Anti-semitism was extremely ripe in Europe and I'm sure that partly figured into Mr. Friedmann's decision. But just changing his name was only part of that story.

The persona of Robert Capa was a total fabrication not just in name. He was supposedly a rich, famous American photographer. A thoroughly constructed personality that his publisher back in Paris was fully aware of. It helped him sell magazines.

Good, I'm very glad.

 

[Rangefinderfreak]

Now that you have settled on this "jewish" matter, may I write a bit of a war photographer I trully think is GREAT... Tony Vaccaro. He didn`t have a backing of a huge magazine, film couriers and budget. He developed his war images in his helmet and kept them because he was afraid that they would be subject of wartime sensorship. He didn`t get stuck with terror, but continued to be a great fashion photographer, and as such I had the priviledge to assist him shooting the MARIMEKKO images in Finland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Vaccaro
https://www.google.fi/search?q=tony+vaccaro&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=4CXFUqbdNujl4QTnx4GQCw&sqi=2&ved=0CC0QsAQ&biw=1680&bih=92