Rodinal+borax question

[imush]

I have tried borax (no other additives) with Rodinal in stand development, to some good effect, I think, although it is highly subjected and cannot be measured. Here are some examples.

Sometimes I shoot friends' family events. Not everybody appreciates the grain, so I would like to try and reduce it with borax and regular development (not stand). So I read this in the article that seems to be the source of the borax usage method:

Only1 gram (1/4 teaspoon) of borax per liter of 1+50 working solution with ascorbate will dramatically reduce the fog level. Developing time will be about 20% greater than that for Rodinal 1+25 without ascorbate.

Is this a typo and it should just mean "inrease dev time by 20%", or should it be read literally "take 1:25 time, increase by 20%, and that is the time for 1:50+borax"? If there is no error, it seems strange since 1:50 dev time is typically about 20% longer anyway.

 

[charjohncarter]

Why mess with that. If you have a development time of 12 minutes in Rodinal 1+50, subtract 3 minutes from that time and then with one teaspoon of Borax (5.0 to 5.5 ml) per 500ml of water (temp controlled) and continue with that for the full 12 minute development. I'm not sure what you intend to gain by your 'Borax' method but if it is controlled highlights and more shadow detail, then this is the method I use.

Here is an example, but using hc110, I did nothing to this image after digitalizing, note the frames on the inside wall (way to the right), no lights inside:

 

[slm]

I have tried the ascorbate + rodinal method, and it does seem to reduce the grain.
I bought powdered vitamin c at a health food store (GNC). Not a big investment to try out.

Cheers.

 

[KenD]

Why not D-76? Reduces grain (and acutance) compared to Rodinal, and would likely require less experimenting to zero in on a time.

 

[Trius]

D-76 and Rodinal give very different looks. Both are good developers, but many prefer one over the others.

As far as the borax/1+50 time question goes, I'd say just try it at your usual time for 1+50 as a starting point. Sacrificing a short roll is a cheap way to test.

 

[titrisol]

ASCORBATE is the keyword here.
Plain Rodinal + Borax will give you long dev times (20-25% more than plain)
However when 4 g/l of vitamin C is added the 1+50+C can be used with times ~1+25. Adding Borax to this mix (1+50+c+b) requires an additonal 20% time.

Only1 gram (1/4 teaspoon) of borax per liter of 1+50 working solution with ascorbate will dramatically reduce the fog level. Developing time will be about 20% greater than that for Rodinal 1+25 without ascorbate.

 

[imush]

Well, I tried 1:50+ascorbate+borax on TriX@400 timed according to the above rule, which yields ~8.5 minutes. [1L 1:50 Roginal +4g sodium ascorbate + 1g borax]

Most negatives look underdeveloped, except these four that came out more or less usable, and they were probably overexposed to begin with. I shall try with a longer dev time, but the results so far are not "rodinalish" enough to me, except maybe the one with park view.

 

[giellaleafapmu]

Why mess with that. If you have a development time of 12 minutes in Rodinal 1+50, subtract 3 minutes from that time and then with one teaspoon of Borax (5.0 to 5.5 ml) per 500ml of water (temp controlled) and continue with that for the full 12 minute development.

Sorry, I do not understand this. Take the 12'@20C in Rodinal 1+50, substract 3' you get 9' and then...what? Did you mean: do the first three minutes in Rodinal 1+50 then change to Rodinal 1+50+Borax (10ml/liter) and go until the 12' have been completed? I have never tried Borax but I like the shadows in your samples and if this is the way you got them I might try this (once I understand what you wrote!).

GLF

 

[charjohncarter]

GLF, no, 9 minutes 1+50 Rodinal, dump, and then 3 minutes in Borax 5.0-5.5 ml in 500 ml of water (normal agitation for both baths). This is my version of Barry Thornton's two bath method. There is a lot written on the web about Barry's two bath.

 

[giellaleafapmu]

GLF, no, 9 minutes 1+50 Rodinal, dump, and then 3 minutes in Borax 5.0-5.5 ml in 500 ml of water (normal agitation for both baths). This is my version of Barry Thornton's two bath method. There is a lot written on the web about Barry's two bath.

Right! I am a bit slow... Thanks!

GLF

 

[Freakscene]

The effects of stand development are not subjective - you can quantify them sensitometrically. Compressed midtones often occur as a result of stand development.

The reason for adding ascorbate (and remember not to use ascorbic acid - it will kill the developer - sodium ascorbate only for your Rodinal) is to decrease grain. The reason for adding borax is to lower the pH so that the ascorbate is not activated as a primary developer by the very alkaline (high) pH of Rodinal.

If you want to get the look that Rodinal provides (dark, lowered midtones) but with much finer grain, you should try DK-93, which uses p-aminophenol at a lower pH albeit with more sulfite (remember that the bisulfite reacts with hydroxide to form sulfite), though you can make your own with equivalent sulfite and it still works. It was more similar to Rodinal in my admittedly brief tests than Rodinal + ascorbate + borax (I couldn't get Rodinal + ascorbate to work without the borax - I got incredible fog).

Marty