orenrcohen
Established
Just bought my first bottle of Rodinal..
I'm going to Develop TRI-X 400 shot @ box speed. I'm on information overload as I've read all sorts of dillution suggestions, stand, semistand, agitate, don't agitate etc.. For the first rolls I want to keep it simple though..
I typically develop two rolls of Tri-x in a plastic 24 oz tank in D76 agitating (inversion) for 30 seconds and then three inversions every 30 seconds for ten minutes. For my first Rodinal I was thinking about a 1 + 50 dillution.. should I use 1 + 25? For 1 + 50 Dev chart indicates 13 minutes at 20C. Can I use my standard 3 inversions per 30 seconds (works out to 10 seconds of inversion/ minute..) or should I invert less.. OK to develop with my standard 2 reel tank? Any helpful advice and or guidance would be appreciated.. I would love to have a good first experience with these rolls..
Oren
I'm going to Develop TRI-X 400 shot @ box speed. I'm on information overload as I've read all sorts of dillution suggestions, stand, semistand, agitate, don't agitate etc.. For the first rolls I want to keep it simple though..
I typically develop two rolls of Tri-x in a plastic 24 oz tank in D76 agitating (inversion) for 30 seconds and then three inversions every 30 seconds for ten minutes. For my first Rodinal I was thinking about a 1 + 50 dillution.. should I use 1 + 25? For 1 + 50 Dev chart indicates 13 minutes at 20C. Can I use my standard 3 inversions per 30 seconds (works out to 10 seconds of inversion/ minute..) or should I invert less.. OK to develop with my standard 2 reel tank? Any helpful advice and or guidance would be appreciated.. I would love to have a good first experience with these rolls..
Oren
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
1+50 is a good compromise for nice tone and grain.
I develop Tri-X for 25 minutes at 18ºC on soft light: overcast or shadows, and expose it at 200 incident. Agitation every minute.
For direct sun I meter it at 50 incident with yellow filter and develop it for 14 minutes at 18ºC with agitation every third minute.
Cheers,
Juan
I develop Tri-X for 25 minutes at 18ºC on soft light: overcast or shadows, and expose it at 200 incident. Agitation every minute.
For direct sun I meter it at 50 incident with yellow filter and develop it for 14 minutes at 18ºC with agitation every third minute.
Cheers,
Juan
Colin Corneau
Colin Corneau
1:50 is a good all-around choice. It's pretty much my exclusive developer and although it's personal choice for much of these matters, I think its advantages are pretty strong -- greater speed developer, great acutance, good tonal range.
For experimenting and finding your way, try shooting at box speed and go from there. Good luck
For experimenting and finding your way, try shooting at box speed and go from there. Good luck
SebC
Established
I develop it at 1+50 at 20 degrees. It works fine at box speed, and your agitation goes okay.
While people always say that Rodinal is best with less agitation than you might normally use (and I agree) I find TriX needs a little more than some films. From my experience with Rodinal with APX100 you barely have to agitate at all. Neopan/TMax were okay with fairly low agitation. TriX was a bit weird if you didn't agitate enough. Having said that it's my favourite of the bunch.
My suggestion is you develop the first roll as you outlined, and see what you get. If your results are okay, then do another roll but with a little less agitation, and see if you get any improvements in acutance or any negative side effects. If you carry on like this, gradually reducing agitation, you may well reach a point where you think "Aah, not quite enough!" and you'll get an idea of where the sweet spot may be for you.
While people always say that Rodinal is best with less agitation than you might normally use (and I agree) I find TriX needs a little more than some films. From my experience with Rodinal with APX100 you barely have to agitate at all. Neopan/TMax were okay with fairly low agitation. TriX was a bit weird if you didn't agitate enough. Having said that it's my favourite of the bunch.
My suggestion is you develop the first roll as you outlined, and see what you get. If your results are okay, then do another roll but with a little less agitation, and see if you get any improvements in acutance or any negative side effects. If you carry on like this, gradually reducing agitation, you may well reach a point where you think "Aah, not quite enough!" and you'll get an idea of where the sweet spot may be for you.
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
Oren,
Agitation has some relevance, but a lot less than the three main things: exposure, development time, and temperature.
No matter the film, when the scene's contrast is high (direct sun), it's better to expose for more light and develop for less time, so the zones in shadow receive light enough and don't lose too much detail...
You can always shoot at box speed, and mix sunny and overcast scenes on the same roll, but your negatives will be inferior. Will you be able to scan, correct, or print them? Yes. Will those images be tonally as good as if you exposed and developed for the scene's contrast? Not a single time.
Cheers,
Juan
Agitation has some relevance, but a lot less than the three main things: exposure, development time, and temperature.
No matter the film, when the scene's contrast is high (direct sun), it's better to expose for more light and develop for less time, so the zones in shadow receive light enough and don't lose too much detail...
You can always shoot at box speed, and mix sunny and overcast scenes on the same roll, but your negatives will be inferior. Will you be able to scan, correct, or print them? Yes. Will those images be tonally as good as if you exposed and developed for the scene's contrast? Not a single time.
Cheers,
Juan
typhillips
Established
I would stay away from 1:25. My experience is that you get more base fog, and others have reported the same.
I use 1:50 for 11 minutes with standard agitiation (30 sec. initial, 5 inversions every 30 sec).
I personally like this combination for the high contrast and prominent (yet sharp) grain it produces. As such, I don't waste my time trying semi-stand methods, other dilutions and such to try and minimize grain and contrast.
As long as you have at least 3mL of Rodinal concentrate per roll in the tank, you will be fine. I've even gone slightly lower than that without issues.
Good luck!
P
Peter S
Guest
Oren.
Nice combination of film and developer. I also use a two reel tank, but make developer for 2 reels even if I only develop one roll. That way the fluid does not slosh around as much when I do inversions. I have found that less agitation works better.
One of my next steps is developing longer at lower temperatures, I stumbled across this german pdf file http://home.arcor.de/piu58/fotoweb/aufsaetze/Rodinal.pdf which I found interesting.
BTW I usually shoot at 200 and develop for 9 minutes (20C). 1 minute slow inversions and then 2 slow inversions every minute. Bit flat, but works ok for scanning. What Juan says about high contrast situations is correct, starting point would be overexpose by 1 stop reduce developing time with 15-20%.
Just start, enjoy the exploration and within no time you will have your own working recipes.
Have fun!
Nice combination of film and developer. I also use a two reel tank, but make developer for 2 reels even if I only develop one roll. That way the fluid does not slosh around as much when I do inversions. I have found that less agitation works better.
One of my next steps is developing longer at lower temperatures, I stumbled across this german pdf file http://home.arcor.de/piu58/fotoweb/aufsaetze/Rodinal.pdf which I found interesting.
BTW I usually shoot at 200 and develop for 9 minutes (20C). 1 minute slow inversions and then 2 slow inversions every minute. Bit flat, but works ok for scanning. What Juan says about high contrast situations is correct, starting point would be overexpose by 1 stop reduce developing time with 15-20%.
Just start, enjoy the exploration and within no time you will have your own working recipes.
Have fun!
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
25 minutes @1:50 is way too long. 11 minutes is good, though I prefer an EI of 250 or 320.
Minimal agitation is good; three gentle inversions every three minutes is sufficient.
Minimal agitation is good; three gentle inversions every three minutes is sufficient.
Frankd
Established
I like using Rodinal at 1:75 for 14.5 minutes with TriX rated at EI 320. I agitate with one inversion every 30 seconds. Sometimes I go 1:50 for 14 minutes for low contrast subjects.
I was using HC110 for a long time but I like the way the middle grays hit when I print using negs developed in Rodinal.
I was using HC110 for a long time but I like the way the middle grays hit when I print using negs developed in Rodinal.
charjohncarter
Veteran
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
Hi Trius,
25 minutes at 18ºC for flat overcast scenes. Incident at 200.
14 minutes with very little agitation for direct sun, also at 18ºC. Incident at 50 with yellow filter.
Just perfect for wet printing... Both negatives show exactly the same range on a light table... I've done it for many years...
Cheers,
Juan
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Advice: only use on Tri-X.
If you add it to Trix you'll have a nasty trip to the hospital.
If you add it to Trix you'll have a nasty trip to the hospital.
anu L ogy
Well-known
I am curious as to why only tri-x would be recommended?
Bingley
Veteran
I am in the less-agitation camp, and agree with this advice. I've been using Rodinal for the last 18 mos, trying various agitation routines with 1:50 dilution, and am finding that less agitation results in better highlights and somewhat less pronounced grain. I've been using two or three gentle inversions every other minute.
P
Peter S
Guest
Sorry for hijacking your thread Oren, but some interesting contributions that made me curious.
Juan, I am also a bit baffled by your times. Of course we all have our own ways of measuring light, agitating, printing and on top of that our personal preferences how a printed picture should look, you clearly are happy with your results and that is what counts. However, even if you compensate for the lower temperature your 25 minutes is overcooking it, at least that is what would happen with my negatives if I would follow your recipe. At what grade do you print your negs ? Condenser or Diffusor?
SebC. Started working with Rollei Retro 100 as summer is finally coming and I like to shoot (wide)open. Still struggling a bit with developing time/agitation; looks like I am heading towards EI 80 and 10 minutes (1+50). How do you expose/develop your APX 100/Rollei Retro 100 ? You also wrote minimal agitation especially with APX, what do you mean with that ? A gentle twirl with the twirling stick every minute, 1 slow inversion every 3 minutes ? Let me know please.
Oren, very nice website, really like a lot of the black and white work.
Juan, I am also a bit baffled by your times. Of course we all have our own ways of measuring light, agitating, printing and on top of that our personal preferences how a printed picture should look, you clearly are happy with your results and that is what counts. However, even if you compensate for the lower temperature your 25 minutes is overcooking it, at least that is what would happen with my negatives if I would follow your recipe. At what grade do you print your negs ? Condenser or Diffusor?
SebC. Started working with Rollei Retro 100 as summer is finally coming and I like to shoot (wide)open. Still struggling a bit with developing time/agitation; looks like I am heading towards EI 80 and 10 minutes (1+50). How do you expose/develop your APX 100/Rollei Retro 100 ? You also wrote minimal agitation especially with APX, what do you mean with that ? A gentle twirl with the twirling stick every minute, 1 slow inversion every 3 minutes ? Let me know please.
Oren, very nice website, really like a lot of the black and white work.
SebC
Established
Peter - I have been exposing at 100, developing in 1+50 at 20 degrees for 13 minutes. 10 inversions for the first 30 seconds, then 2 gentle inversions at 4 minutes, 7 minutes and 10 minutes.
Nice smooth tones, pretty sharp. Probably a bit low contrast in flat light - but they were perfect negs for scanning. As I've just picked up an enlarger I may have to refine this method for wet printing, but we'll see.
Nice smooth tones, pretty sharp. Probably a bit low contrast in flat light - but they were perfect negs for scanning. As I've just picked up an enlarger I may have to refine this method for wet printing, but we'll see.
Chris101
summicronia
degruyl
Just this guy, you know?
I have actual numbers for TXP320, but they are probably not relevant. (I assume you are talking about TX400)
1+50, 14 min, 15 inv + 3 inv / 3 min, All inversions are slow, 20 C. All Day Long. I use this for high contrast (straight on flash) scenes. It does result in a fairly dense negative, but works ok for scanning and pretty well for printing.
No pre-wash used, but don't be surprised when you see a blue / brown liquid coming out of the tank. Also, don't worry.
1+50, 14 min, 15 inv + 3 inv / 3 min, All inversions are slow, 20 C. All Day Long. I use this for high contrast (straight on flash) scenes. It does result in a fairly dense negative, but works ok for scanning and pretty well for printing.
No pre-wash used, but don't be surprised when you see a blue / brown liquid coming out of the tank. Also, don't worry.
jbielikowski
Jan Bielikowski
1+50 Rodinal is genious thing, with times from digital truth and about 4 agitations per development works like charm with every film I've used.
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
Hi Peter,
My enlarger is condenser and diffuser... I feel really surprised at people who say "for x film, development is y minutes"... That just doesn't exist... When I cursed my career on photography, the first year of B&W is dedicated to calibrate one single film per student and learn to expose and develop for direct sun and for flat light... Those are two different universes... How can you say developing Tri-X for 25 minutes, exposed incident at ISO 200 on overcast days, at 18ºC is "overcooking it"? Go do it... You'll see your negatives are perfect even before printing... Only pure whites on scenes reach levels just below highest density on negatives... Why overcooked?
Of course for direct sun the story is a totally different one... Just 14 minutes with three inversions every third minute, and at 18ºC... That's treating a film in the best possible way... I tend to print my direct sun negatives on grade two, and my overcast negatives on three, to give my scenes the last bit of help when printing... I understand what lots of people do: they develop a film at just one development time, they include sunny and overcast scenes(!), and they end up with too contrasty sunny negatives and too flat overcast negatives, and then they abuse filters or photoshop, and anyway their sunny images have too dense shadows and their overcast scenes weak tonal separation.
Overcast scenes require a lot more development than sunny ones, and not just a bit more: they really need a tough development so their flat tonal range becomes separated on negatives... And as sunny scenes require a lot more exposure to fill the shadows with rich detail closer to human view, they need a lot less development than overcast ones to control their much higher natural contrast and the huge exposure...
Again: when I develop a sunny roll, and then an overcast roll, and I place both of them on a light table, both show a precise and identical use of the whole tonal range negatives can give, with whites clearly differentiated from high grays. And as I don't use autoexposure and don't mix different contrast scenes, my contact sheets show 36 perfectly exposed and printed frames. This is what real LF black and white photographers do: developing each scene depending on its contrast, and not using "one single development time for everything".
Recommendation: shoot a roll of Tri-X on overcast scenes metered incident at ISO 200. Develop it in Rodinal 1+50 at 18ºC for 25 minutes with three inversions every minute, and come back and tell me how your negatives came. What can you lose, a roll? You can win a lot.
Cheers,
Juan