Rodinal Replacement

[Bill Clark]

Recycling is pretty common here in Minneapolis. My recycling container is usually full and it’s quite large (55 gal.), picked up every two weeks. When I had my business, several items I had to take to the recycling center like nicket metal hydride batteries and other batteries I used as well as florescent light bulbs and other items. Best Buy took my old computers as I upgraded. I just took my last batch of drain oil from our cars to the recycling center with oil filters but I don’t change my own oil anymore.

I don’t recycle everything as some products I have they don’t take. An example is the popcorn used in shipping. Freestyle sends me stuff with popcorn that’s supposed to be environmentally friendly but recycling doesn’t take them here. I just received an item from Don Goldberg and I’m saving the popcorn for him as my brother in law and his wife live near him and will deliver next time we’re visiting them in Oregon Wi.

One of the best recycling ideas is don’t buy it espcially if you don’t need it.

My daughter and her family live in L.A. where she owned a Prius. Hers had a very large and expensive nickel metal hydride battery. Very expensive to replace. Her husband owns a Nissan Leaf 100 percent battery. My daughter drives it to work to Santa Monica, a 45 mile trek. But since it’s 100 percent battery she can use the car pool and express lanes. My daughter sold her Prius and bought a Mazda SUV.

At any rate, a little snapshot what I do regarding recycling.

 

[x-ray]

I already use environmentally safe cleaning items. These do exist.

I get rebates almost every month, sometimes money back, from my energy company because the energy I use is so low.

My daily driver is a Prius.

I recycle everything.

I plant a lot of my own vegetables.

So, at least for me, this is something that I am in line with.

I realize that film isn't the most environmentally friendly thing, but I do the best I can in my own ways.

My comment isn't necessarily pointed towards you, but many seem to be scoffing at the idea that some people are choosing to use a product that would be more environmentally safe. I am not the OP

My degree is isn chemistry so I looked at the formula for Rodinal. You have nothing to worry about using it and don't need to put on a hazmat outfit. In high concentrations the sodium hydroxide is dangerous. Sodium Hydroxide is the key ingredient in drain cleaner. The common name is Lye. Lye is not only used for drain cleaner, it's used to produce hominy which is a southern dish made from corn. In addition the Norwegians use it to make Lutefisk which is prepared with fish and treated with Lye and is totally disgusting ;~). I can say that because my wife is Norwegian. Either sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide ( stronger alkaline than sodium hydroxide) is used in making soap. Also my eye Dr prescribed a medication for my dry eyes that contains a very dilute solution of sodium hydroxide. And yes it is used in ones eyes.

I wouldn't suggest splashing it in your eyes but in the concentration it's in in Rodinal I wouldn't worry unless you have very sensitive skin.

p-Aminophenol is essentially Tylenol and Tylenol can be substituted. Excessive consumption of Tylenol can cause liver and kidney damage. I use Tylenol for arthritis and spoke to my physician. He said taking it by the directions is not a problem. The amount in Rodinal is a non issue. You're not drinking it and if you did you'd have to drink a large quantity over a long period of time to have any problem. on the other hand if you did, your pipes would be cleaned out and you wouldn't have a headache. ;~) Just a joke!!!

One formula uses either sodium sulfite or Potassium Metabisulfite which both are used in wine and beer making. You consume it every time you pop a bottle open or a can. No worries here, right. Unfortunately some of us are sensitive to sulfites. I'm one of those luck folks so I watch my consumption of foods containing them. With wine I buy wines bottled in France or Italy because there are no added sulfites and the natural sulfites aren't in a large enough quantity to be a problem.

The Freestyle formula had zinc powder in it. Zinc in itself isn't toxic. Steel galvanized water pipes are coated with molten zinc to protect them and prevent rust. Many homes and buildings to this day still have galvanized pipes in them. Zinc is a very common element around us. The metal trim on cars and trucks is often zinc because of the low corrosion potential. Even the little metallic cap that covers the cork on the top of a wine bottle is zinc. The US penny is made of zinc with a copper coating. The danger of zinc is in the dry form in a finely divided powder. If ignited, which isn't that easy, you have a thermite device. Thermite was used in bombs in WWI and WWII to burn building down. Don't think that's a worry in this case.

I wouldn't be at all concerned. No need to lose sleep over it.

Digital vs film, the manufacturing of CCD and CMOS sensors as well as the IC's in the circuitry requires the use of very polluting chemicals. This is even of concern to me. In addition, digital cameras aren't used for decades like film cameras and eventually they wind up in land fills. This has become one of the problems with the electronic age.

Several years ago the US government mandated all photo labs and operations within the government transition from film to digital and go from wet printing to digital inkjet printing. A few years later the government went back to wet printing. It was found the dyes and outgassing plus the plastic in the cartridges created more pollution and waste than the wet printing process.

When you stop and think about all that goes into the making of a product from mining raw materials, energy to lake them and so on you start to question whether new technology is truly better for the environment.

 

[Bill Clark]

Well X-Ray people could move to Titan.

Better have a coat.

Or Io as it has volcanic activity.

 

[x-ray]

Well X-Ray people could move to Titan.

Better have a coat.

Better have more than a coat.

 

[Bill Clark]

X-ray, maybe take some Tennessee home made Jack Dan with them!

 

[phrons]

I don't think anyone is trying to make light of anyone's environmental consciousness.

Unfortunately some people seem inclined to strain at a gnat (tiny amounts of diluted Rodinal) while happily swallowing a camel (any motorized vehicle I can think of, especially a Prius.)

It would appear that Rodinal is as environmentally friendly as most of the alternatives, none of which provide the same results for me. I will continue to use Rodinal and dispose of it in a sound manner as normal.

I agree driving a car isn't the best but its something that needs to be done, as where I live there is no good public transportation where I live.

So like I already mentioned I do the best I can with my situation, and wherever I can.

Do I realize the parts of my life that I can improve? Yes. I know all the parts and I do my best to improve those situations.

Pointing out any hypocrisy that I may have, all of which I am very aware of, does nothing for this conversation (either specific or the meta conversation about environmentalism). I appreciate the snark though.

 

[x-ray]

This reminds me of the panic a few unversed folks had over the thorium in glass of some lenses. I remember one person storing his aeroektar in a lead container. Sadly these people don't understand that it would ruin the film in the camera before causing any harm to the user. Also very little radiation actually emerges from the glass and is absorbed by the glass.

Dare I tell owners of the pre aspheric 35mm summilux that it contains lanthanum and the dangers of that element? I guess some folks need to exist in a state of guilt and fear. (Not a jab at the OP).

 

[Pioneer]

I agree driving a car isn't the best but its something that needs to be done, as where I live there is no good public transportation where I live.

So like I already mentioned I do the best I can with my situation, and wherever I can.

Do I realize the parts of my life that I can improve? Yes. I know all the parts and I do my best to improve those situations.

Pointing out any hypocrisy that I may have, all of which I am very aware of, does nothing for this conversation (either specific or the meta conversation about environmentalism). I appreciate the snark though.

You misunderstand and it probably was because I wan't as clear as I should have been. I wasn't trying to point out any hypocrisy of your own, believe me, I have plenty of my own. I just used your comment as an example. I was trying to point out the silliness of worrying about a very, very safe chemical that has been successfully and safely used to develop film for far longer than either of us has been alive.

It is this hypersensitivity to "chemicals" that get very useful things banned. I would be very willing to bet that there are many items under both of our kitchen sinks that, while immensely useful, are likely far more damaging than Rodinal or any other developing agent. Meanwhile all of us are commonly doing all kinds of things that are way more damaging to our environment, driving cars is just one very easy example to highlight.

Again, my apology if I offended, it was not my intent. But rather than be concerned about the chemical you are using to develop film, we should all spend more time focusing on the things that really need to be addressed.

 

[farlymac]

So what would be the formula for homemade Rodinal? A 1/4 teaspoon of drain cleaner, and a half dozen smashed up Tylenols mixed up in a gallon of water? Five gallons?

And speaking of stuff going down the drain, how about that "fatberg" they had to dig out of the London sewers! Haven't they heard about putting separation tanks on restaurant drain lines?

PF

 

[x-ray]

Here's a formula for home brew Rodinal

http://www.drfrankenfilm.com/diy-rodinal/4575179217

Note it uses Tylenol and sodium Sulfite from a wine / brewing store.

Sodium hydroxide is red devil lye drain cleaner available from your local grocery store.

You can see it's pretty basic stuff. The only thing to be careful about is handling and mixing the sodium hydroxide (lye). In dilute form at working strength it's not dangerous at all. In the stock strength I'd avoid contact with skin if you have delicate skin. The sodium hydroxide crystals are very dangerous. Sodium hydroxide absorbs moisture from the air and can cause severe burns.

The commercial form has a very dilute concentration of sodium hydroxide having minimal risk of injury.

 

[HHPhoto]

Performed a quick search and didn't find what I was looking for. If this has been asked before, I apologize. Rodinal is one of my favorite developers - love the sharpness and tone. It is not an environmentally friendly developer.
Is there a more modern developer with similar characteristics that might not be quite so bad for the environment? Thanks in advance.

Jon

Hi Jon,

don't worry, and just continue to use Rodinal as you are happy with it.
Because:
The developing agent in Rodinal is p-Aminophenol.
P-Aminophenol is also used in hair tinting lotions. And there even in a much higher concentration compared to Rodinal!

So every day millions of hair tinting users worldwide put that on their heads and head-skin, and after that put these hair tinting solutions down the drain into the public wastewater system.
And the wastewater systems can cope with that, because the microorganisms used to clear / purify the water "eat" the p-Aminophenol. It is their food, they metabolize it.

There are no reasons to stop using Rodinal (or home-processing in general) because of environmental issues.

Cheers, Jan

 

[Chriscrawfordphoto]

Rodinal is not bad for the environment. The concentrate is dangerous because it is primarily a highly concentrated solution of Potassium Hydroxide, a caustic alkali. When diluted (remember this stuff is usually used diluted 1+50) the solution is no longer a strong alkali and is diluted even more when poured down the drain after use.

 

[drewbarb]

Thanks for the clarifications from some of you more knowledgeable folks. Before this thread, I had been under the impression that it was a pretty harmless developer, environmentally speaking. Then I got caught up in those German Water Regulations and descriptions, and momentarily forgot that they are based upon full strength and industrial amounts, neither of which are the case for our purposes.

I suppose if one dumped 50 gallons of the stuff undiluted into a stream it would be toxic to the immediate area, but the 20ml or so I use at a time, mixed with gallons of water and a bit of vinegar (I use dilute distilled white vinegar for my stop bath, and I always neutralize my spent developer and stop bath solutions by mixing them together before I dump them) will yield a net result of basically nothing to worry about. This was my modus operandi for many years before this thread; I guess it will stay the same going forward. Thanks again for the question and the clarity.

 

[ptpdprinter]

...I always neutralize my spent developer and stop bath solutions by mixing them together before I dump them.

How exactly does mixing those chemicals together "neutralize them"? Stop bath may eliminate the development action but it doesn't neutralize the chemicals.

 

[ColSebastianMoran]

I am actually really curious about Rodinal and the environment. I always dispose of my Rodinal at the toxic waste dump. Same with the first rinse after dumping the Rodinal and after being done with the fixer (Ilford Rapid Fixer). Located in The Netherlands btw.

Rodinal in the bottle is a dangerous chemical and must be handled carefully. Contact with skin will cause a real burn and a splash in the eye may end vision in that eye. It is highly caustic.

Google "rodinal msds" to get the manufacturer's safety data sheet.

Diluted it's better, I used to send the used diluted developer down the drain with plenty of water. But, don't pour out the bottle!

It's available from Freestyle. The shipping container is impressive.

 

[Guy Pinhas]

Still going to do what I do as far as disposal, but thanks for all the info x-ray.

 

[farlymac]

Here's a formula for home brew Rodinal

http://www.drfrankenfilm.com/diy-rodinal/4575179217

Note it uses Tylenol and sodium Sulfite from a wine / brewing store.

Sodium hydroxide is red devil lye drain cleaner available from your local grocery store.

You can see it's pretty basic stuff. The only thing to be careful about is handling and mixing the sodium hydroxide (lye). In dilute form at working strength it's not dangerous at all. In the stock strength I'd avoid contact with skin if you have delicate skin. The sodium hydroxide crystals are very dangerous. Sodium hydroxide absorbs moisture from the air and can cause severe burns.

The commercial form has a very dilute concentration of sodium hydroxide having minimal risk of injury.

Thanks, X-ray. If I ever get the plumbing fixed here, I'll give it a try.

PF

 

[johnf04]

How exactly does mixing those chemicals together "neutralize them"? Stop bath may eliminate the development action but it doesn't neutralize the chemicals.

When I studied chemistry....nearly half a century ago....an acid plus a base gave a salt. Potassium acetate?

 

[css9450]

It's available from Freestyle. The shipping container is impressive.

They shipped mine FedEx Ground.... It came by train!

 

[kingjon]

I want to thank everyone for their input. I never expected the discussion to take off in the direction it did and again, thank you all for your responses.