Rodinal Spots

[mgilbuena]

I am developing Kodak Tri-X in Rodinal 1+25 for 7 minutes. Initial agitation, then inversions every 1 minute.

This is my first negative where I've found spots in the film. These are not water spots on the negative; the negatives have been wiped and these spots are in the film.

Does anyone have any idea what might be the cause? Are these air bubble spots or something else?

 

[Chris101]

It looks as if the film was touching for part of the development, then separated before ir got to bad. Especially the blob near the stop sign has that look to it.

 

[charjohncarter]

I'm with Chris101. Especially, if these where on just a few frames.

 

[MartinP]

Development, or condensation in/on the cassette or film, if it was brought out of a fridge or freezer and opened up without letting the temperature even out.

 

[mgilbuena]

Another roll with Rodinal, tri-x 400 @ 13 minutes, 1:50. I've got some of these spots appearing again in predominantly sky scenes. I agitate by inverting the tank and swirling once every minute, with the initial agitation for 30 seconds.

What are these spots? What might be wrong with my technique? Air bubbles? Something else? I do not believe the film is touching, as I do not get these results with any other developer.

I am at a loss for how I might be able to eliminate this.

 

[shadowfox]

If you look at the shiny side (not emulsion) of the negative at a low angle, do you see the blobs? Usually I get water pollutant residue when using tap water to wash my film.

To wash it, use damp paper towel (the ones with no lint) to wipe the marks then immediately dry with the dry end of the paper towel.
Don't ever do this on the emulsion side.

 

[mgilbuena]

If you look at the shiny side (not emulsion) of the negative at a low angle, do you see the blobs? Usually I get water pollutant residue when using tap water to wash my film.

To wash it, use damp paper towel (the ones with no lint) to wipe the marks then immediately dry with the dry end of the paper towel.
Don't ever do this on the emulsion side.

Unfortunately, the blobs do not appear on top of the shiny film. I do sometimes get those and it can be easily washed off. The spots that appear in these scans are in the film itself, not appearing on top of the shiny layer.

~~

Do you guys think it might be permawash residue or staining? I have been thinking about what parts of the process may introduce these spots.

I shot a test roll that I have not processed yet. I am going to cut it four ways in an attempt to isolate where the fail point may be. These are the scenarios I am going to test:

1> Develop normally, use water stop as normal, fix as normal, permawash as normal -- SPOTS SHOULD APPEAR, AS THIS IS MY STANDARD TECHNIQUE.
2> Develop normally, use water stop as normal, fix as normal, skip permawash -- do 20 minute water rinse instead.
3> Develop normally, use stop bath wash, fix as normal, skip permawash -- do 20 minute rinse instead
4> Develop normally, use stop bath wash, fix as normal, use permawash as normal

Any other ideas? I anticipate spots to appear on test 1, as this is my standard method.

 

[gho]

Just my two cents.

1. Wash tank and reels.
2. Wash cup for preparing the rodinal.
3. Spool the film onto the reels and put into tank.
4. Prewash film.
5. Prepare the rondinal (mix thoroughly) and develop normally.
6. Stop with water bath.
7. Fix normally.
8. Wash thoroughly.
9. Open tank. Check if film was correctly spooled up.
10. Hang to let dry and check if there are still any spots.

So the main deviation from your techniques is to check that everything is clean and to check if the film was spooled up correctly. I have never seen those blobs myself.

 

[newsgrunt]

I also use Rodinal and Permawash and have never had these issues at all so am at a loss other than what has been suggested by others here. I'd lean towards film getting stuck to itself in the cassette but that's prolly a stretch.

 

[mgilbuena]

I'm pulling my hair out as to what may be causing this. You guys do not think it may be exhausted or contaminated fixer?

It occurred to me that I was mixing the rodinal and water directly into the tank while the film was inside. Even though I vigorously agitated, I thought this might have been what I was seeing. To be sure, I cut a test roll into thirds and placed each piece into a separate tank:

Tank 1: 2 minute water pre-soak. I put water and added the rodinal last while film was in the tank as I have previously done. 1:50, developed for 13 minutes, dumped, water rinse for 1 minute, dump, then fixed for 5. Washed film by inverting 5 times, dump, 10 times, dump, and 20 times, dump. Added permawash, 30 seconds, pulled out, hung to dry. SPOTS APPEARED AS EXPECTED.

Tank 2: 2 minute water pre-soak. Rodinal and water mixed in separate container. Added to tank. 1:50, developed for 13 minutes, dumped, water rinse for 1 minute, dump, then fixed for 5. Washed film by inverting 5 times, dump, 10 times, dump, and 20 times, dump. Added permawash, 30 seconds, pulled out, hung to dry. SPOTS APPEARED.. NOT EXPECTED.

Tank 3: 2 minute water pre-soak. Rodinal and water mixed in separate container. Added to tank. 1:50, developed for 13 minutes, dumped, water rinse for 1 minute, dump, then fixed for 5. Washed film by inverting 5 times, dump, 10 times, dump, and 20 times, dump. NO PERMAWASH. SPOTS APPEARED.. NOT EXPECTED.

Could it be fixer contamination on the reels / tank from an improper wash? And how does one correctly wash a steel tank and steel reels?

This problem does not exist with D76. For the above, I am using Compard R09 One Shot Film Developer.

 

[mathomas]

I don't have any brilliant ideas, but mixing the developer and water in the tank seems like a bad idea (regardless of whether it's causing your current issues). Good luck.

 

[raytoei@gmail.com]

mgilbuena,

as part of the problem solving process, use distilled or mineral water. if the problem does not occur, then it is something else.

raytoei

 

[DNG]

I don't prewash, I mix Rodinal in a beaker, I use plastic self-loading reels, I use charcoal filtered tap water, and don't have any problems with water spots, or whatever spots.

As you trouble shoot this, only change 1 thing at a time, that way, you will know if [that] change was the cause.

 

[john_s]

If you look at the shiny side (not emulsion) of the negative at a low angle, do you see the blobs? Usually I get water pollutant residue when using tap water to wash my film......

Did you look on the emulsion side for surface discontinuities? Or is it actual silver density?

 

[mgilbuena]

It's silver density.. not on the surface.

 

[mgilbuena]

More importantly you must use different water, distilled or deionised, it's quite likely the problems to do with your water supply. While commercial developers contain chelating agents and surfactants to help with most water supplies sometimes it's not enough. This could be why there's no problem with D76 only Rodinal.

It's unlikely there's a problem with the Rodinal itself, despite the various name changes it's still made in the same old Agfa factory with no changes.

above quoted from apug forum

Based upon my tests (and I'm about to get some distilled water to test the above), I would have to agree that it is most likely a result of an impure water supply with minerals. As I live in the San Francisco Bay Area with water from the Hetch Hetchy reservoir, there are likely mineral impurities that are affecting the rodinal. A distilled water test should confirm this..

 

[rodinal]

I put water and added the rodinal last while film was in the tank

This sounds like a pretty bad idea to me...

 

[charjohncarter]

Another roll with Rodinal, tri-x 400 @ 13 minutes, 1:50. I've got some of these spots appearing again in predominantly sky scenes. I agitate by inverting the tank and swirling once every minute, with the initial agitation for 30 seconds.

What are these spots? What might be wrong with my technique? Air bubbles? Something else? I do not believe the film is touching, as I do not get these results with any other developer.

I am at a loss for how I might be able to eliminate this.

I had enough trouble with Rodinal creating uneven development, streaking, and a few other anomalies. So I suppose this could also be from Rodinal, but your work flow seems to be good. If you wish to continue with Rodinal, maybe start by changing water, maintain 20 degrees, agitate as slow as possible (gently), use a stop bath, fix by adding 2 minutes to time, use hypo-clear or anything else you can think of.

 

[Ronald M]

I usually scan film after a short rinse after fix . Then I know if it is worth washing and to isolate possible problems.