Roll Paper - best practices

[bence8810]

Hello all,

I am starting a project that requires printing 14x21 prints and I bought a roll of Fuji RC paper as this was the most economical option.
I sorted everything out, have a large 20x24 easel and have the 20x24 baths for the developing. Bought some cutting mat and a cutter.

The only thing i forgot was to think about storing the unexposed photo paper once I cut them into the right size.
I don't have a large enough box and don't have a black nylon bag either the size that would be required.

What do you suggest I could try getting? I do have a DIY store nearby but right now I don't have any ideas other than maybe large black trashbags (which might actually leak).

Thanks a lot,
Ben

 

[StoneNYC]

Hello all, I am starting a project that requires printing 14x21 prints and I bought a roll of Fuji RC paper as this was the most economical option. I sorted everything out, have a large 20x24 easel and have the 20x24 baths for the developing. Bought some cutting mat and a cutter. The only thing i forgot was to think about storing the unexposed photo paper once I cut them into the right size. I don't have a large enough box and don't have a black nylon bag either the size that would be required. What do you suggest I could try getting? I do have a DIY store nearby but right now I don't have any ideas other than maybe large black trashbags (which might actually leak). Thanks a lot, Ben

Perhaps you could buy a box of B&W 20x24 paper and make some B&W prints first? Then once you've gone through the box (10 sheets I think is one of the smaller boxes you can get) you can use that box, however there's usually wiggle room in Ilford boxes so you could probably just add paper inside without the necessity to use up the B&W paper immediately.

~Stone | Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[bence8810]

Perhaps you could buy a box of B&W 20x24 paper and make some B&W prints first? Then once you've gone through the box (10 sheets I think is one of the smaller boxes you can get) you can use that box, however there's usually wiggle room in Ilford boxes so you could probably just add paper inside without the necessity to use up the B&W paper immediately.

~Stone | Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

Hello,

Thanks for the tip - it did cross my mind but in Japan the prices are so horrendous these days. 10 sheets of 20x24 would be the same price as what I paid for half the roll.

So before I shell out for that, I'd like to see if there are any other options / DIY ideas etc.

Thanks,
Ben

 

[x-ray]

Go to the Large Format Forum for sale / want ads and ask to buy a 20x24 box and bag. Many of those guys print very large. I often see people on the forum looking for empty sheet film boxes.

As a rule the people on that forum are very nice and helpful.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/

Another is www.apug.org

A 20x24 premier paper safe would probably be your best solution.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/202420-Premier-Paper-Safe-20x24

 

[bence8810]

Go to the Large Format Forum for sale / want ads and ask to buy a 20x24 box and bag. Many of those guys print very large. I often see people on the forum looking for empty sheet film boxes.

As a rule the people on that forum are very nice and helpful.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/

Another is www.apug.org

A 20x24 premier paper safe would probably be your best solution.

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/202420-Premier-Paper-Safe-20x24

Thanks for your note, very helpful as usual!

That 20x24 premier safe box would be great but they don't sell them here and shipping would be horrendous.
The empty paper box is a fantastic idea and I am going to contact the local Japanese printing community to see if someone could spare a box and sleeve for me. If so, I could get right to business.

Ben

 

[Pherdinand]

In case that fails, you could also try to pick up old/expired 20x24 or larger paper in its box, and use the box. And use the old paper for tests or for funky experiments e.g. postcard project no 7 🙂
I do see once in a while in local dutch thrift stores as well as on our online "marketplace" folks getting rid cheaply of darkroom material- i picked up some agfa brovira from the 1970s. Though 20x24 is a bit large, very rarely seeing those.

 

[Pherdinand]

Seeing your plywood window blinds- you could make a box out of plywood with a fitting lid and matte black painted inside 🙂 😉

edit: why do you need to pre-cut the whole roll? maybe just cut for use and keep the rest as a roll?

 

[bence8810]

Seeing your plywood window blinds- you could make a box out of plywood with a fitting lid and matte black painted inside 🙂 😉

edit: why do you need to pre-cut the whole roll? maybe just cut for use and keep the rest as a roll?

Life in Tokyo means you have literally no space. My darkroom is actually a normal room with a sofa in it and other stuff. I just convinced the wife having a darkroom was extremely important for my well-being 🙂

This means I can't build a large box which I'll have trouble storing then. I need a smallish paper box etc that I can just tuck behind the enlarger's desk or the workbench.
I did contact a local Japanese Facebook community and one person already signaled he might have one available.
I don't see expired 20x24 paper unfortunately anywhere. I think considering the price of 20x24, not many people left their old stock go expired.

Thanks for all the thoughts!
Ben

 

[bence8810]

Just to post an update.

I got only one response through the photo community and it may or may not come through with an empty box.

I did manage to find a rather large (50x80cm) paper box I got some Amazon shipment delivered in and thought of using that temporarily. I applied black tape to all the places light could get in. As for the actual bag, I couldn't find any proper black photo paper sleeves in Japan (might be due to my limited language abilities) so I bought 90liter trashbags in hope it would work. I got 10 and when I got home I started wearing them one at a time (please stop laughing!!!) and stood near a strong light to see if anything comes through the bag. I could see a faint light wearing 3 bags and it was totally pitch black from the 4th onwards. I ended up with 5 bags stacked into one. This is going to be a pain handling in the darkroom but should work in terms of keeping the paper safe while unexposed.

Any thoughts? What else would you try on the cheap and without taking up permanent space in the room?

Thanks,
Ben

 

[bence8810]

I have many empty 20x24 boxes in my darkroom. I don't have the heart to throw them away... I'd gladly send one to Japan but the shipping cost alone will be too much...

If I was you, I'd post an ad in one of the stores near you. Quite a few fellows will be glad to give their empty boxes, I'm sure!

Thanks Ned, I appreciate that!

I'll continue to try and approach these local communities / shops in hope that someone has something for me.
At Freestyle I saw they have these mailers (envelope) with a black nylon black bag which would also be fantastic but I can't seem to find it anywhere in Japan...

Ben

 

[bence8810]

So I just gave this a try and in all honesty, it was a heck of a lot harder than I thought. It requires a lot of space, I even ended up standing the couch in my darkroom on its side to give more room. (small flat - no way to have a completely designated darkroom).

I ended up cutting two 63x42cm sheets and put everything away.

While cutting the handheld cutter was very hard to keep straight even though aided by a ruler. I'll try cutting some normal paper before I attempt the roll again.

I also underestimated the width of 110cm (40inch). It is huge and very hard to work with. Cutting the paper I ended up needing to put my palm on it to support my own weight etc. I was doing this on the floor and I think it definitely requires a workbench which I don't have (at this width).

I am trying my 5 layers of trash bags and Amazon cardboard box with the two sheets I cut and will enlarge something on them tonight / tomorrow to see if they were fog free.

I also must have been doing the cutting for a total of around 20 minutes which means the roll was exposed to the safelight this long. It's a normal safelight, mounted on the ceiling and was about 2 meters away from the paper. Light was very dim on the floor level, I am hoping there wouldn't be a problem with that!

Lots of new things experienced and I'll be able to adjust my technique hopefully by the next time I take the paper out.

Ben

 

[bence8810]

Man, I feel for you. I've been through all kinds of similar situations. What's funny is that even after all this, digital is not an option 🙂

Ned I am brand new to this but just seeing a print materialize in the developer pays back for all trouble.

I am 35, never shot film in my early life as digital was available and the only obvious choice but as soon as I tasted film once, I never looked back.

This big roll will be used I am sure and something good ought to come out of it!

Ben

 

[bence8810]

Just an update - I managed to print those two sheets I had already cut and it went better than expected. No visible fog and handling this large paper in the designated trays were no problem at all.

I tried developing with a minimal amount of developer (500ml) as seen in the below photo. As soon as I had the paper in the developer I picked the tray up and kept wobbling it around the whole time, making sure that the small amount of developer gets to all parts of the paper as often as possible. Constant agitation basically with less developer that could cover the entire print. I did this to see if my theory about sponge bath developing would work on a larger print where I'd have no available trays. I am planning on making a 1x1meter print later and will develop it on my bathroom floor. It is RC so it doesn't need so much developer from what I read (and experience).

Here is my darkroom setup with the first sheet developed. On top of my workbench I could only fit two of these large trays so I kept the Developer and Stop there. The fixer was on the shelf below the workbench. I went from Developer to Stop quickly to make sure I don't overdevelop and when stopped, I was no longer in a hurry and just removed the Fixer from the shelf and dropped the print in it. Once done I took the tray to the bathroom and washed it as I don't have a 4th tray (nor the space for it!) to store fixed prints in water.

Once all dried, I put the print back on the cutting board (which now was sufficiently big) and trimmed the edges.

One thing I realized is that with this size I already hit the limits of the enlarger. With the 50mm lens the head was all the way at the top around 120cms or so and the top of the projected image was dangerously close to the column. This actually meant I couldn't use the top blade of the 4 bladed easel as it was covering part of the image. Not sure this makes sense, don't know how to better explain, please see the photo and how my easel is adjusted. Top blade is moved down and serves as the "bottom blade" while the top of the image is just held by the top of the easel frame. It was also extremely difficult to set the focus as my arm didn't reach long enough to adjust the knob with my eye on the grain focuser. Felt so paralyzed. If I need to print bigger, I'll need to turn the head.
My current print is 58cmX39cm approximately.

Any comments / suggestions / anything I might be doing wrong or could do better?

Thanks,
Ben

 

[x-ray]

Looks like a very nice print. Well done!

 

[bence8810]

Looks like a very nice print. Well done!

Thank you!

Looks very good!

If you were in my city, I'd give you my V35 Focomat as a gift. I love seeing your progression.

Don't forget: Small is beautiful. For the past 4 years I've been on a 20x24 fb craze. Once I finish my sheets left, I'll switch to 5x7 FB for a change. 5x7 FB prints can be astonishingly beautiful and addictive.I'm stressing on the FB importance as RC is junk (to me). A 5x7 FB print has this high Quality feel to the eye and to the fingers. It's Rich.

When your kids grow up, they'll know you loved them a lot if you printed their pics on FB paper. If you print their photos on RC paper, they'll feel inferior and unworthy. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it

Thank you Ned!
You and pretty much everyone commenting on my stuff have been very helpful. There's a lot more to learn too so i'll be asking!

I have about 800 or so sheets of Forte 5x7 Fibre which I started using just recently and my dad is looking for more while it's still out there.
Fibre is superior indeed like you say but in Japan I couldn't get the Fibre rolls and paper in general is so very expensive that I am happy I can still afford something.

To give you an example, a box of Ilford MGFB 20x24 10sheets costs $170 USD.
At $17USD a sheet, it's a bit hard to justify. That's almost like 10 pints of beers at my favorite hangout. That's one sheet!

In the US (and presumably Canada) it's still affordable, perhaps half price.

Roll paper is totally gone from Japan, and this RC just popped up in one of the stores recently so I went for it right away. It was $300 USD and it's 110cm X 20 meters so I'll get lots of 20x24's from this (66 to be exact), albeit RC!

Learning printing is ok on RC I think, the technique is the same. If I'll ever do an exhibition, it'll be Fibre for sure!

And with the 8 boxes of Forte 5x7 I'll get a hang of fibre too in no time!

Will post with more progress as I go!
Ben

 

[bence8810]

Good work on getting the piles of paper!
Maybe this will come as a comforting note but my Forte 5x7 (Bromofort) paper is from the late 80's and there's no fog what so ever. It was kept in a dark and cool storage basement and never touched. My father found the deal and bought it for me.
Your paper - if stored well - may as well have a long time ahead! In Canada you don't need to go far for a cold climate 🙂 which also helps. In Japan the summers are crazy and I am now buying a 2nd fridge for the paper.

I wish I had the big fibre papers but I too - like you - keep looking and hope to buy up some good amount of Forte papers in Hungary while still possible.

Prices here are outrageous. Both film and paper... It used to be very different. One week I bought a box of 8x10 by Oriental (local company) for 60USD and the next week it jumped to 120USD. Just like that a 2 fold increase.

Anyways, I'll print while I can 🙂
Ben

 

[bence8810]

Forte is the very best paper I have ever used. Every time I print on it I feel very lucky.

3 years ago I purchased 500 sheets of 20x25 Oriental RC Grade 2 from a guy in Florida for 250$.

There are deals to be had. Never stop searching 🙂

Forte is indeed very good and it's a shame the owners let it go so quick without putting up a fight! These re-privatized companies of the Eastern Block often ended going belly up, we are lucky Forte lasted this long.

My 5x7 paper is grade 2 (Special in Forte's terms) which I find a little too flat but there's nothing I can do.
You suggested going with Dektol 1:0 and see if contrast increases. What is your solution with that Oriental Grade 2? Have you tried printing on it? Your photography also looks best on high contrast from what I see on your thread.

Ben

 

[bence8810]

Best is to suit your negatives to the paper. Over develop a little.
And use benzotriazole to tame the fog, the base fog at least.
Then there selective bleaching but I wouldn't go there yet. That's for when you want to exhibit and you can afford to give it your best effort.

What does benzotriazole do? I read it reduces the fog but if my paper has no fog (did the develop white sheet test already), does it still make sense to use it?

I did develop my film once for 10min which should have been developed for 7:30 and I had some real dense negatives - hard to print through and highlights blown.

Thanks,
Ben

 

[Pherdinand]

Why don't you ask Ned to send you a few of the black plastic envelopes (without the box) from his empty 20x24 collections? Or is the shipping too much even for the plastic envelopes?

nice work!
I thought your project was max 20x24s that fit in the trays, now you say 1x1m and bathroom floor🙂 are you just attracted by the possibility?
I would be careful with the bathroom floor option considering the fixer. On development you see ti right away that you are done, and it went fine, on the fixer you see it only later...

 

[bence8810]

Why don't you ask Ned to send you a few of the black plastic envelopes (without the box) from his empty 20x24 collections? Or is the shipping too much even for the plastic envelopes?

nice work!
I thought your project was max 20x24s that fit in the trays, now you say 1x1m and bathroom floor🙂 are you just attracted by the possibility?
I would be careful with the bathroom floor option considering the fixer. On development you see ti right away that you are done, and it went fine, on the fixer you see it only later...

We did speak with Ned about the plastic envelopes but all is used up now storing stuff and he'll see if he can free some of them up later.

Yes - the project is still 20x24 in my mind but the couple knows nothing about wet-printing and they'd just like the biggest possible - which is 20x24 as per what I told them.
But I was thinking of printing perhaps one really big one from a Rollei or Mamiya 645 shot. We are going together to a small island as a group of friends off the cost of Tokyo in August and if something comes out there I thought I could print that.

Now I only print 135 and therefore keeping the 2:3 ratio I cut the paper myself and do 21x14 or so... maybe slightly bigger. I'd push it out to 24 but my enlarger won't let me do so as the image gets too close to the column when the head is all the way up.
For the big print - if I do it - I'll go with wall projection.

As for the fixing, I'll just do it for 5-10 minutes. It's RC so it really isn't going to be that much of a problem I think.
The trouble I see is the sheer size. It'll sort of fill my bathroom floor entirely. I will have to touch the top of the print as I'll be standing or kneeling in the tub and applying the chemicals that way.
Anyways a fun project, looking forward to it. Will post back for sure, although it will take time before I get to the point of trying.

Cheers,
Ben