Rollei 35 RF

[Huck Finn]

Wow! And to think I was stumped. I'll have to get my head out of my a**. Thanks for all the great ideas. Actually we have family up from the city every fall to pick apples in the Glastonbury orchards. I got a whole set of spectaular pictures there last October. Billiant, sunny, autumn day. Thanks again.

 

[Huck Finn]

The price for the Rollei 35 RF with Rollei/Zeiss Sonnar lens has just dropped to $1499 at Adorama!

Yes, it's just a re-badged Voigtlander Bessa R2, but it's not a grey market import. It comes with 2-year manufacturer's warranty, deluxe camera strap, M-mount adapter, & a cool silver body, making it a deluxe, limited edition R2 worth a couple of hundred $$ more than the $500 R2 (body only) - all in all, a nice introduction to the world of Zeiss lenses & now at a more reasonable price than the $1900 that it sells for at B&H

This is Adorama's second price reduction in the past 6 weeks. It will be interesting to see if the press continues to come down. It will be a great buy if it gets to $1200, IMHO

 

[Huck Finn]

I came across a dealer in Japan who has dropped his price on the camera/lens kit by 40% from $1712 USD to $1020. Likewise, price on the 40mm & 80mm lenses have been cut by 45% & 33% respectively. This leads me to expect more cuts by American dealers in the near future.

Since Japan & Southeast Asia were the marketing targets for this camera, it is possible that they are more overstocked than American dealers with expectations for sales being much higher there. If so, price cuts could be more drastic there than here in the states.

It should be interesting to follow the progress of future developments.

 

[Taipei-metro]

If someone wants a Leica mount w/40mm(one 40mm on Canonet GIII is enough for me now) Sonnar Rollei RF,why not Leica CM($995)? both auto or manual focus. You want to change lens? get a used CLE or R2 body all around $400..
Zeiss,Leica 40mm,probably have the same character in performance.
How about Rollei AFM 35?
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Huck Finn]

No reason not to buy a Leica CM or Rollei AFM 35, Taipei-metro. Of course, each is a whole different beast than an all manual, mehanical camera & you cannot change lenses. A CLE? 25 years old. No quality control when buying used. Harder & harder to find parts.

Now the real question is: why not an R2? If you're are budget conscious, buy the R2 - although you'll pay closer to $500. And buy a Voigtlander lens to put on it - & you will be very happy with it. However, if you want to try Leica or Zeiss quality optics in a moderately wide lens & if you prefer to buy your equipment new, this is the best deal around. A 35mm Leica lens at f/2 costs at least $1700. Leica does not provide a lower cost f/2.8 alternative in this focal length. You can get f/2.8 in a 50mm lens for $745, but then you live with the narrower point of view. If 50mm is what you want, then you can do that for $1245 with an R2. But if you want something a little wider, the price for a Rollei is $1499 & dropping.

Furthermore, buying an R2 from B&H or Adorama means buying a grey market import with a one-year store warranty. The Rollei comes with a 2-year manufacturer's warranty & Rollei's backing for parts availability to service the warranty or future repairs. Grey market is a great way to save some money, but given the choice, I'd rather pay extra & buy the "USA" model.

Thanks for pointing out the alternatives. It's good for rangefinder fans to have some alternatives. For a long time theri were few if any.

 

[Taipei-metro]

Thanks Huck,
I'm looking at a full page ad in this Japanese magazine on the 35 RF,on the top is a faint picture of the Rollei 35S,the S stands for Sonnar of course, sugesting this camera decended from the 35S.
On this same magazine is a 22-page test report on the different Rollei 35.And when compare to Sumicron C40, this Sonnar is no Leica.
My 2 cents is,why pay over $1,400 for a silver R2? and one has plenty of chances to handle a totally manual camera other than this 35RF.
If a small viewfinder don't bother you,a good used Minilux is about a half of a thousand dollars,and at least a Leica Sumarit f2.4...

 

[rover]

Huck, you are doing a good job watching this for us. In the short time that they have been offering the Voigtlander line, Cosina has been notorious for introducing an attractive product at a premium, but less than Leica, price, only to reduce that price in short time (the 35/1.2 lens comes to mind most recently). I know there is a "gotta have it now" RF crowd that pays this premium for the new best thing, but I wonder how strong the marketplace really is for RF equipment. We are quite a niche group when you think of it. On the CVUG Bob Shell speculated that Konica-Minolta may introduce a new RF camera in the fall. I would think that right now the attraction to them would be to fit into the gap between the Bessas and Leicas like the Rollei RF. They may be at an advantage too now in not having to immediately offer a full line up of lenses. They can capitalize on the quality and acceptance of CV glass and do their best to sell a body. With the formal discontiuation of the Bessas L, R and T, and naming of official US distributors, it seems that the time is right for Cosina to introduce a new body too. All interesting stuff.

 

[Huck Finn]

Thanks Huck,
I'm looking at a full page ad in this Japanese magazine on the 35 RF,on the top is a faint picture of the Rollei 35S,the S stands for Sonnar of course, sugesting this camera decended from the 35S.
On this same magazine is a 22-page test report on the different Rollei 35.And when compare to Sumicron C40, this Sonnar is no Leica.
My 2 cents is,why pay over $1,400 for a silver R2? and one has plenty of chances to handle a totally manual camera other than this 35RF.
If a small viewfinder don't bother you,a good used Minilux is about a half of a thousand dollars,and at least a Leica Sumarit f2.4...

Taipei-metro, there is absolutely no reason to spend $1400 for a silver R2. How one spends his money is entirely a personal matter. I find it interesting to watch the price come down. For a year, the price was $1900 - still is at B&H. Now it's under $1500 at Adorama & a little over $1000 at m-camera in Japan.

Yes, the 40mm Sonnar, which is the the standard lens for the Rollei 35 RF, is the same Zeiss design that was used on the Rollei 35S.

I'd love to see the test report. Is it a recent article or from the archives? Can you post a reference?

Thanks for your information. 🙂

 

[Huck Finn]

Huck, you are doing a good job watching this for us. In the short time that they have been offering the Voigtlander line, Cosina has been notorious for introducing an attractive product at a premium, but less than Leica, price, only to reduce that price in short time (the 35/1.2 lens comes to mind most recently). I know there is a "gotta have it now" RF crowd that pays this premium for the new best thing, but I wonder how strong the marketplace really is for RF equipment. We are quite a niche group when you think of it. On the CVUG Bob Shell speculated that Konica-Minolta may introduce a new RF camera in the fall. I would think that right now the attraction to them would be to fit into the gap between the Bessas and Leicas like the Rollei RF. They may be at an advantage too now in not having to immediately offer a full line up of lenses. They can capitalize on the quality and acceptance of CV glass and do their best to sell a body. With the formal discontiuation of the Bessas L, R and T, and naming of official US distributors, it seems that the time is right for Cosina to introduce a new body too. All interesting stuff.

Rover, thanks for your observations. I think you may be onto something. In my research, I learned that the impetus for this camera emerged from conversations between Rollei's Japanese distributor & Cosina. So the initiative may be as much from Cosina as it is From Rollei in Germany. Marketing/pricing strategy too?😕

 

[SolaresLarrave]

I'm still not quite interested on investing on a Rollei. Nice finish and looks, and clever idea that of making it compatible with M-mount Leica glass. However, another way to get Zeiss glass in a rangefinder is through the Contax G system. In fact, the G1 bodies are selling for peanuts now... when they show up for sale.

Sorry, don't want to appear like a curmudgeon but this isn't really a new option in the rangefinder market. I'd give credit for that to the CV people instead.

 

[Huck Finn]

Agreed, Solares, that Rollei has not provided a new option in the rangefinder market. CV deserves all the credit for coming out with both a camera that is geared to the needs & budget of the recreational user instead of the professional & then backing it up with a full system. The Rollei 35 RF is, in fact, a CV body with different cosmetics & different framelines. So, again CV deserves credit here as well because this Rollei entry into the rangefinder niche is really a joint venture between Rollei & CV.

No need for you or anyone else here to invest in a Rollei. I happen to like it & think that it was written off early on because of its price & because it is a re-badged R2. In the process, some of its positive attributes were overlooked. Now that the price is coming down, I believe it is worth a second look.

In regard to the Contax, it is IMHO a high level point & shoot, using rangefinder principles. This allows it to do some special things with Zeiss optics. If you're looking for a P/S with exceptional optics, then this is the right camera. While you can focus manually, I didn't find it comfortable to do when I looked at it. If you're looking for a traditional rangefinder with manual operation, I don't see Contax as the way to go. Rollei, on the other hand, does bring Zeiss optics to a traditional M-mount camera.

I don't mind you being a curmudgeon. Different opinions make the world go 'round. Well, at least they make conversations like this go 'round. 🙂

 

[Huck Finn]

when compare to Sumicron C40, this Sonnar is no Leica.

Taipei-metro, I have a few more minutes now than I did last night, so allow me to respond to your comment.

The Sumicron C40 is a superb lens. The test results I saw from Modern photography back in the '70s (posted on another Forum some time ago) rated it as excellent at every aperture, both center & edge! These are spectacular results - very rare even for a Leica. So, I have no argument with your praise for it. I will only say that it is no longer in production & has not been to the best of my knowledge for over 20 years. So bargain hunters can search the used equipment market & hope to find a jewel. If they do, great! Even one that has fungus can be cleaned & restored to like new condition. Folks who prefer to buy new will have to look elsewhere.

I cannot compare test results on the Rollei 40mm Sonnar to the Modern Photography results because I haven't seen a report of tests under the same conditions. In order to compare apples & apples, I looked at the Popular Photography test report for the Leica 50mm Elmar (11/96) & compared it with the PP report for the Rollei/Zeiss 40mm Sonnar (2/04). This is the closest focal length in a Leica lens that I could find with a maximum aperture of f/2.8. Results for the 2 lenses were very close. SQF data showed that the Rollei was slightly better at f/2.8 & f/4, while the Leica was slightly better at f/5.6 through f/16. The fact that there were only slight differences between the 2 lenses is a significant plus for the Rollei because of the increased difficulties in lens design & construction with a lens wider than normal - when compared to one at 50mm. My read on the reports was that the 2 lenses were very comparable.

Amateur Photographer also tested the Rollei 40mm Sonnar (3/03). Liuke Popular Photography, they found it to be an outstanding lens. "The 40 mm Zeiss optic offers fantastic sharpness . . . (and is) ideal for general photography either on location or in the studio . . ."

But test reports only tell part of the story. What about real world users? You commented on the old Rollei 35S, which used the same lens design. I have seen numerous postings by owners of this camera, raving about the lens. Let me call your attention to two. Godfrey DiGiorgi is a professional photographer who posts frequently on photo.net. He said that he was able to take "stunningly beautiful photographs" with this lens. You can judge for yourself by viewing pictures he took with the Rollei 35S at www.bayarea.net/~ramarren/. Second, visit the website of John Lind, another frquent poster on photo.net. He has devoted an entire section of his website to the Rollei 35 series & has no end of praise for the Sonnar lens. You can find him at http://johnlind.tripod.com/.

What about the latest incarnation of this lens, built for the 35 RF? I spoke with several of its owners in my research. None of them had a bad word for the lens; all feel that it is superb. One with whom I spoke is also an owner of Leica equipment & he feels that the 40mm Sonnar is far superior to any of his Leica lenses. (He was equally high in his praise of the 80mm Planar, which he also owns.) Another owner, Mike Elek, has posted his review of the 35 RF on his website with a sample photograph. You can find it at http://host.fptoday.com/melek/pages/cameras.html. Finally, Rollei-USA will make available photos taken with this camera so you can judge for yourself.

You say: ". . . this Sonnar is no Leica." No, it is a Zeiss designed Rollei. Is it of Leica caliber? Ultimately, after the lab reports, these evaluations are subjective judgments. Folks will disagree. I can only say that after doing my research, I recently purchased this lens & I haven't been disappointed!

 

[SolaresLarrave]

Huck, you're a very patient man! 🙂

The Rollei looked like the holy grail to me... and then I realized why it looked strangely familiar; the CV gang strikes again!

Now... I do own a Contax and it is, as you say, a very high level P&S. Just a fancy shooting machine... However, it does bring with the precision of Zeiss-designed optics, which are wonderful even wide open. A rangefinder it is not, of course, but a close approximation, sure. And it's not built on a CV platform at least! 🙂

Curmudgeonly writing from his studio in the midwest...

 

[Taipei-metro]

Is there ANY possibility that this Sonnar was designed by Yashica-Contax and assembled in Germany?
Is there a proof that this is a German-Rollei design?
Is part of Rollei owned by Samsung?

 

[rover]

Francisco, I think the Contax G bodies are made by Cosina, in fact I think it is the platform that the Bessas are built on. Same platform too with a different top plate as the Olympus OM10 and Nikon FM 10.

I don't understand your questions Taipei-metro. Surely the Ziess Rollei relationship is strongly documented. I read in fact that Rollei has a modern lens plant which produces Zeiss lenses in exactly the same manner as Zeiss, with the same machines, same glass, same coatings.....

edit
I just found this
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0047xt

 

[SolaresLarrave]

Another familiarity case! No wonder! It's the CV invasion! You're only safe if you have Canonets or Leicas!

JK 🙂 Thanks for pointing it out, Rover.

 

[Taipei-metro]

Rover my man,you are wrong...
Contax G was and is design and made by Yashica-Contax,not Cosina.
Good relationship does not mean the 40mm Sonnar was made by Rollei,for the 6x6(120 to US) lenses,yes, but may not be the same story on 135(format,35mm to US) lenses.
When you read,ON THE LENS, S-Apogon 1:2.6 f=38mm HFT Rollei Germany,do you think this lens must be designed and Made in the Germany by Rollei?
Wrong!
Do you think Zeiss on Sony digitals was Zeiss Germany made?
I know they have great relationships too..
Marketing and truth, maybe a little bit different.

 

[rover]

I believe the body was provided by Cosina to Contax who added all of the electronics, finder and the good stuff that makes it a G.
I know that you are correct that the Sony lenses are made by Yashica. My point is that regardless of its heritage, the 40mm Sonnar is reportedly a very high quality optic. The fact that it doesn't say Leica or Leitz on it does not change that. Look at it this way, what is the difference between the single coated and reportedly not fully compatible with the M line 40/2 C Summicron, or multi-coated, traditionally cammed 40/2 CLE Rokkor? Both very sharp lenses capable of excellent results.

 

[Huck Finn]

Is there ANY possibility that this Sonnar was designed by Yashica-Contax and assembled in Germany?
Is there a proof that this is a German-Rollei design?
Is part of Rollei owned by Samsung?

Taipei-metro, There is absolutely NO chance that this Sonnar was designed by Yashica-Contax. None. Zero. These questions are answered on both Zeiss & Rollei Worldwide on their websites. The latter can be found at www.rollei.de. See Services, then FAQ. Zeiss also specifically addresses this under its FAQ at www.Zeiss.de.

The lens barrel is made by Cosina. The glass is from Schott in Germany. Rollei finishes the glass in its plant in Germany. Rollei assembles the components in its plant, making sure that the glass is properly centered. Rollei has manufacured this lens design under license from Carl Zeiss on & off for 30 years. Zeiss maintains a close working relationship with Rollei, insuring that Zeiss designs built by Rollei are made to the same exacting standards that Zeiss maintains for the lenses it builds for Rollei & other customers.

Rollei was bought by a Danish group a couple of years ago. The era of Samsung ownership was only for a brief period in the 1990s.

The Zeiss lenses built for Contax in Japan are still Zeiss designs. Kyocera owns Contax, and they are very capable of building high quality optics. Carl Zeiss is a separate corporation, building optics for a wide variety of photographic & industrial purposes. They maintain a relationship with Kyocera, who builds their designs for Contax cameras.

 

[Huck Finn]

The Rollei looked like the holy grail to me... and then I realized why it looked strangely familiar; the CV gang strikes again!

Now... I do own a Contax and it is, as you say, a very high level P&S. Just a fancy shooting machine... However, it does bring with the precision of Zeiss-designed optics, which are wonderful even wide open. A rangefinder it is not, of course, but a close approximation, sure. And it's not built on a CV platform at least! 🙂

Curmudgeonly writing from his studio in the midwest...

Solares, I like what CV has done for the world of rangefinders. At first I was going to buy a Konica Hexar RF, but I didn't want any automation - & then Konica discontinued it. They never really made the 35mm lens available in America - or did so on a very limited basis. I couldn't find one & that's the focal length I wanted. I didn't feel that they really made the commitment to support this product & it seems to have gotten lost in the Konica - Minolta merger.

Then I was going to buy a Leica - almost did a couple of times. But I'm a nervous guy & I have a hard time shelling out $2000 for a camera with a 50mm lens with a store warranty that counts its life expectancy in days, not years. Although it's a Leica, it's still a piece of used equipment with a history that is unknown to me. Not every Leica is perfect, some are lemons & get sold, then re-sold.

I realized that Leicas are high quality pieces of equipment with very tight tolerances, built for professional use. They can be finicky, needing periodic tuning & adjustment to maintain their high performance level. I don't need a professional camera.

I own 3 Nikon cameras. None are from the F line. I don't need what an F5 or an F4 or even an F3 can do. I'm very happy with my FM3a, etc. I have the option of mounting professional quality lenses on my consumer body or I can save money & buy a consumer grade lens if my usage needs don't dictate a more expensive lens. Nikon is a company that provides a very comprehensive line of equipment to meet a wide variey of needs.

Leica failed to do what Nikon has done. Since it abandoned the CL project back in the '70s, it has ignored the consumer end of the market except for its line of high quality point & shoots. Now Leica is being ignored by the professionals to whom it once catered. They have all gone digital & Leica has been slow to adjust to the changing market.

Into the vacuum of the consumer grade rangefinder niche stepped Cosina. Its Bessa cameras are far from Leica quality. Their shutters, for example, are not quiet. But their shutter speed does go up to 1/2000 & Leica has been unable to get a cloth shutter to do that. I can think of a number of situations for which I want 1/2000; I'm hard pressed to think of a situation for which I need the sound of a Leica shutter. After all, they're not silent.

Cosina is almost single handedly responsible for the rangefinder revolution. Unlike Konica, they have produced a full product line to support their cameras. And they have done so at a price/quality compromise that is reasonable for the amateur. While the Leica customer base is shrinking, the customer base for Cosina rangefinder products is expanding - still within a niche.

My only complaint with Cosina is that it hasn't developed the corporate infrastructure outside Japan to support its products in the area of parts & service. I don't live in Japan & I don't read or write Japanese. I don't mind buying lenses without service support, but a camera has a lot of moving parts. It can break & need repairs. Remember I'm a nervous kind of guy. So this is where I became interested in Rollei.

Rollei essentially went into partnership with Cosina on this project, with Rollei lending its corporate support & distribution network - as well as its name - to the sale of a version of the Bessa R2. This is very similar to what Leica did with Minolta to produce the CL 30 years ago. Back in the '70s, the traditionalists were not singing the praises of the CL. They were dismissing it as "made in Japan." Three decades later astute consumers see its merits & it has become a collectible. Leica optics in a Japanese-built, consumer grade body. Rollei/Zeiss optics in a Japanese-built, consumer grade body.

No, the Rollei 35 RF is not the Holy Grail. (I'm actually searching for the Holy Grail, but that's a whole different subject. 😀 ) The Rollei 35 RF has been wildly overpriced. More power to them if they can get that kind of money from the collectors in East Asia where the Rollei name carries a certain cachet. But unrealistic pricing does not make it a bad product. In fact, it's a very good product. The recent 20% price drop at Adorama puts it right on the edge of being worthy of consideration, so people like me will bite. If it ever gets to the $1000 range, for which it's now selling in Japan, it will be a bargain - as it already is in Japan.