Rolleiflex film flatness issue

shinb

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Hi guys,

First time posting here.
I have a question about film flatness issue in Rolleiflex.
Recently I bought a Rolleiflex 3.5C (or E in outside Europe), model before F without changeable focusing hood and screen with Xenotar 3.5, was locally CLA in the Netherlands after I purchased. After several test rolls, I realised that approx 1/3 of shots were out of focus towards infinity, not entirely but only the centre of the image. So I suspect it's a film flatness issue.

I have one more Rolleiflex, 3.5MX never notice this problem. So I wonder why...
I know that the back door was damaged when I bought it, tripod base was quite bent towards lens so I bent back, there is no light leaking but this might be a reason, the camera might have a bit off arraignment on film gate (I can't see. just guess)

I saw on the internet that someone mentioned about swap the back door solve the issue. I know about the fact film never gets flat and Rollei also created a glass pressure plate for that. But I just need reasonable condition on this copy. Does anyone have good advice or experience?? Thank you very much in advance!!
 
I think the job of the back door is to keep light away from the film, that's it. As the pressure plate is attached to it with springs, the shape of the back door shouldn't matter beyond keeping the pressure plate in the right place. I'm not sure how you could check that, maybe something like little bits of modelling clay where the corners should be and see if it leaves an impression in the right places? The pressure plate not sitting right would probably mean focus moves closer, whereas I understand you to say that focus moved toward infinity.
That means the film is bending forward. It's a general problem with medium format cameras. Too little resistance from the feed side could make it worse, see if there's some friction. Maybe too little friction from an incorrectly seated pressure plate could also have an impact, but seems unlikely that the effect of moving focus closer wouldn't dominate. It's often recommended to only advance the film right before making an exposure to deny it the time to sag.
 
Hi guys,

First time posting here.
I have a question about film flatness issue in Rolleiflex.
Recently I bought a Rolleiflex 3.5C (or E in outside Europe), model before F without changeable focusing hood and screen with Xenotar 3.5, was locally CLA in the Netherlands after I purchased. After several test rolls, I realised that approx 1/3 of shots were out of focus towards infinity, not entirely but only the centre of the image. So I suspect it's a film flatness issue.

I have one more Rolleiflex, 3.5MX never notice this problem. So I wonder why...
I know that the back door was damaged when I bought it, tripod base was quite bent towards lens so I bent back, there is no light leaking but this might be a reason, the camera might have a bit off arraignment on film gate (I can't see. just guess)

I saw on the internet that someone mentioned about swap the back door solve the issue. I know about the fact film never gets flat and Rollei also created a glass pressure plate for that. But I just need reasonable condition on this copy. Does anyone have good advice or experience?? Thank you very much in advance!!

It wasn't actually a glass pressure plate. You might be thinking of the early Leica M3, there. Certain models did have the ability to be fitted with a glass plate *between the lens and the film* but they retained a conventional pressure plate behind the film. The glass is more akin to a Reseau plate without the fiduciary markings and yes, it does promote improved film flatness as Modern Photography found back in the day when they did back to back tests with a Tele Rolleiflex with and without the glass fitted. I have a film plane glass myself.

Although it's so obvious it's unlikely to be an issue, it's worth mentioning the standard Rollei back features a pressure plate with settings for both 6x6 and 35mm (for when a Rolleikin is in use). Without actually looking at a back I am not sure, offhand what the likely result would be of shooting 120 with the plate set to 35mm—but it's obviously, best to ensure the plate is in the correct position.

It's quite hard to offer definitive advice with this sort of problem from afar unfortunately. But whereas a Rollei that's quite worn through much use, or mis-aligned due to impact damage may produce unsharpness manifesting Eg top to bottom, or left to right—or even a combination of both—it is impossible for these sorts of parallelism faults to generate sharp images around all corners, but not in the centre. The nature of an out of parallel lens board focus means it just can't happen. So in the absence of that possibility I'm inclined to tentatively agree, that what you have described may be connected to film flatness.

The other, more sinister possibility is that at some point prior to your ownership a charlatan has played around with the originality of the taking lens components. Sellers without scruples will do that if Eg a decent looking Rollei has a front lens glass with much coating damage. By swapping in a front glass—or even whole front group, or (less commonly, because it's usually more intact) some back lens components, they can assemble a clean camera with good looking glass. But if random combinations of untested glass from sundry lenses is cobbled together there's no guarantee it will be as well corrected as an original intact taking lens from Zeiss or Schneider. Sadly it's just impossible to tell when this has taken place if you do not have the full history of a particular camera. (People who do this sort of thing should be drawn and quartered).

I'm sorry the above doesn't provide some definitive fixes to resolve your dilemma. But fixing a camera fault often consists of checking and eliminating possible faults sequentially. In your shoes I would critically inspect the alignment of the back in all planes and its fit to the body. Whilst it is impossible to make a badly distorted back fit as well as a brand new one (fit everywhere, particularly through the radius of the back corners, was *perfect*, new), they don't have to fit that sweetly to exclude light and function very satisfactorily. I have trued up enough bent backs myself to know this much. But...they do need to seat the pressure plate evenly on both sides for it to work correctly. Hence, in the first instance I would either try to improve that yourself or seek the opinion of a local repairer. If the back isn't promising a replacement may be warranted. (Should it end up not improving matters it can be re-sold or retained as a spare).

These sorts of problems are interesting in as much as they challenge one to thrash out the variables looking for the likely cause. Hence I'd be quite interested, please, to be kept apprised of your findings.
Oh and welcome to RFF.
Cheers
Brett
 
Do your out-of focus issues appear only when you shoot a long time after winding film? You could check if you have a series of shots closely spaced in time.

If it was a pressure plate issue, you should have it in most frames. If it happens in only 1/3 of the cases, maybe it comes from film tension relaxing.
 
Is there any pattern to WHEN this happens? Rollie stupidly designed their cameras so the film comes off the supply spool at the bottom, and runs over a right-angle roller before feeding into picture-taking position. This roller can put a kink in the film if the camera has sat for a while. When you wind it to get ready to take the next picture, the kinked film moves into the gate and causes a defocused stripe if you take the picture right away (instead of waiting for a while for the pressure plate to flatten it out.) One of the many improvements that Minolta made when designing the Autocord was to flip the film path over, so the film comes straight off the supply spool and into the film gate, so it doesn't have to make the right-angle bend until after you've exposed it.
 
Brett Rogers (#4) has offered some excellent advice. I will add my small bit.

Stop tinkering with your camera and get it repaired professionally. It may not be cheap, but the 3.5E is a fine camera and you'll have a Rollei for life and beyond...

I suspect your 3.5E was dropped and the damage to the back/bottom happened. Home repairs never really make a back problem go away - bending the back any which way just weakens another part of it.

Rollei TLRs are complex creatures and only a qualified technician should tackle the task of disassembling, repairing (which often aren't too complex if done by someone who knows what they are doing) and reassembling.

You may find a new back (if you can find one, they are as rare as loose diamonds on Bondi Beach and in 20+ years of regular Ebay searches for Rollei bits I've seen two on offer, so best of luck!!) solves the problem.

Again, be sure you have the right back for your camera model. They are NOT one size fits all.

It could be a pressure plate issue but again, taking one of these apart requires some knowledge of what you are doing. Many internet posters about repairs mean well but haven't a clue as to what they are doing.

The glass insert (IRRC that's what it was called) was a specialist accessory to ensure optimum film flatness for architecture or fine detail copying like art, manuscripts. It fits some Rolleis but not others. I have one with its own padded custom pouch I won for peanuts from an Ebay seller who didn't know what it was. I've never used it. I recall a special back with a modified pressure plate is required. My (late and great) Rollei repair person in Sydney regarded it as overkill, he told me this was the ultimate accessory for neurotic Germans obsessed with perfection in all things photographic...

Again, let me repeat, you should contact a reliable repair person and have your 3.5E fully CLA'd. The many years of good service you will get from the camera will make the cost worth it.
 
Thanks so much about all your comments. Everything is so useful to me.

First of all, I already full-CLA'd this camera in the Netherlands by a Rollei specialist repairman. He checked the back and also fixed there was a little slack of tripod base mount. And some test shots I could get was really great results. I asked him about my issue and he also told me that is about film flatness. Because if this is about elements of the lens, the centre must be sharp (because he adjusted) and corners become unsharp. And he said that it's a typical case of Rollei and MF film so he can't do anything. That's why I wanted to hear "second opinions" of you guys.

I will keep in my mind all of your advice from now on.

However, I could try other repairmen but just wanted to understand what's going on.

Since it's more than 60 years old second-hand camera, I have no idea about the story of this guy. but yeah, it possibly dropped by someone or changed the elements. And I can't find any pattern of this problem happens. But when I compare this camera right next to my old MX side by side, I found small parts look like a "little tomahawk" right next of feed roll, (hope you understand what I meant, which reset film counter and activate auto-mat) has a suspicious bent towards film roll, this makes keep pushing fresh film roll to the left side (view from the back), so film has offset position. This could fix very easy. Plus changing to the new back is another possibility I would like to try. Actually, I know a shop in Germany who selling Rollei NOS parts include those backs. So I assume I have a chance to get one. Or I just give up and get another copy...I personally like the balance of 3.5E~E2 more than F so that's also fun part to find my buddy.

Btw, I always advance the film before exposure. In term of making rhythm for shooting, this is a bit strange from 35mm point of view but make sense from the large-format point of view🙂

Thanks again to all of you, I hope I can tell you good news next time. Cheers!
 
First of all, I already full-CLA'd this camera in the Netherlands by a Rollei specialist repairman. He checked the back and also fixed there was a little slack of tripod base mount. And some test shots I could get was really great results. I asked him about my issue and he also told me that is about film flatness. Because if this is about elements of the lens, the centre must be sharp (because he adjusted) and corners become unsharp. And he said that it's a typical case of Rollei and MF film so he can't do anything. That's why I wanted to hear "second opinions" of you guys.

I will keep in my mind all of your advice from now on.

However, I could try other repairmen but just wanted to understand what's going on.

You need a real Rolleiflex repairman. I have never had this issue with any (3) of my Rolleiflexes.
This is a Rolleiflex, not a Holga.
 
Did you consider that if it was dropped hard enough to damage the back that either the front standard is damaged or one of the lens elements is damaged? You need to send it to a real Rollei repair person
 
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