Ross London CdeV No. 2 Petzval Lens

[Nokton48]

Hi All,

I just won this old brass Petzval lens. At $135 plus shipping I think I did very well. I'm very good at finding flanges and I have several local sources in my town. I believe from my internet perusing it is a Ross London CdeV No. 2 or something closely similar. The cell diameter is approx 2.25" and overall length 5.25".

Ross Lens 1 by Nokton48, on Flickr

Ross Lens 3 by Nokton48, on Flickr

My intention is is to use this lens on my 4x5" Sinar Normas and 9x9cm Plaubel Makiflex cameras. Yes it needs a good clean but it is 200 years old 🙂

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FINE-LARGE...4L6HBjRzV4%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc

Your thoughts?

 

[xayraa33]

Very nice !

Ross, like Dallmayer, was a top shelf British lens maker, on par with the ritzy French optical houses like Darlot and Derogy.

 

[Nokton48]

I think it might be a "magic lantern" lens as it does not have a slot for waterhouse stops, that I can see. But it does seem to have an internal aperture disk, which I might remove.

I'm hoping this will work for moderate close ups, on larger format 9x9cm/9x12/4x5.

Speed should be about F3.0 without the internal disk.

It arrives from London on Dec 24th! 🙂

 

[xayraa33]

I think it might be a "magic lantern" lens as it does not have a slot for waterhouse stops, that I can see. But it does seem to have an internal aperture disk, which I might remove.

I'm hoping this will work for moderate close ups, on larger format 9x9cm/9x12/4x5.

Speed should be about F3.0 without the internal disk.

It arrives from London on Dec 24th! 🙂

The full bore aperture should give you the beautiful Petzval swirlies with that 3D bokeh of 19th century wet plate portraits taken outside .

 

[Nokton48]

THAT is exactly what I am after.

I'm going to shoot J Lane Dry Plates, as well as modern sheet film.

 

[xayraa33]

THAT is exactly what I am after.

That is an excellent endeavour !

I always liked the photographic works of Robert Howlett and Roger Fenton and John Thomson and Felice Beato for that style of photography.

 

[Nokton48]

I'll have to explore those artists. I've had a lot of fun running down this lens on the internet and reading everything I can find on the Petzvals. I have a LOT!! of large format lenses of all kinds, but nothing like this.

 

[Nokton48]

Here is an article from 1871 that claims that Ross lenses are absolutely the world's finest.
http://antiquecameras.net/rosslenses.html

 

[xayraa33]

I'll have to explore those artists. I've had a lot of fun running down this lens on the internet and reading everything I can find on the Petzvals. I have a LOT!! of large format lenses of all kinds, but nothing like this.

The Petzval was king of the hill in 19th century Daguerreotype, Calotype and wet collodion photography for a fast lens to make portraits possible with photographic mediums with an ISO of 2 or less, until the Rapid Rectilinear (aka Aplanat ) design showed up around 1866. But the Petzval lens still rendered more flattering for portraits in my opinion.

 

[Nokton48]

Geoff Makiflex Dallmeyer Long 1B 4x5 Fompan by Nokton48, on Flickr

This is about what I want to achieve. 9x9cm Plaubel Makiflex, Dallmeyer 1B (long) Fomapan 4x5 film.

Geoff with Makiflex by Nokton48, on Flickr

And here is my Makiflex Bud Geoff, with his Makiflex and Dallmeyer 1B long. He has six Makiflexes, and over two thousand LF lenses. I thought I hada lot 🙂

 

[xayraa33]

Here is an article from 1871 that claims that Ross lenses are absolutely the world's finest.
http://antiquecameras.net/rosslenses.html

I have no doubt that Ross was one of the highly regarded opticians in Britain and the world.

The mid 19th century rivalry in practical optics for photography was between the posh British and French optical firms, more so than the German/Austrian firms like Voigtlander which was one of the first to use (or abuse) Joseph Petzval's breakthrough lens design and the Hungarian Joseph Petzval got very little financial remuneration for his ingenuity of optical design and was ripped off by many optical firms, including Voigtlander .

 

[xayraa33]

Geoff Makiflex Dallmeyer Long 1B 4x5 Fompan by Nokton48, on Flickr

This is about what I want to achieve. 9x9cm Plaubel Makiflex, Dallmeyer 1B (long) Fomapan 4x5 film.

Geoff with Makiflex by Nokton48, on Flickr

And here is my Makiflex Bud Geoff, with his Makiflex and Dallmeyer 1B long. He has six Makiflexes, and over two thousand LF lenses. I thought I hada lot 🙂

Very nice portraits !

I love the OOF backgrounds, it really adds a lot to the feel of the photographs.

Mathew Brady and his team of roving photographers captured many on field portraits like that during the American Civil war. A famous photo depicting that Petzval effect is of President Lincoln with Allan Pinkerton outside a tent .

https://unwritten-record.blogs.arch...ew-brady-collection-in-the-national-archives/

 

[Nokton48]

Short Petzvals are prized and very pricey. I eyeballed this lens and I'm thinking it will give me about as above. ^^

Glass looks good and the lacquer is still intact. Dimensions about right and all I need is a flange.

 

[Nokton48]

I have no doubt that Ross was one of the highly regarded opticians in Britain and the world.

The mid 19th century rivalry in practical optics for photography was between the posh British and French optical firms, more so than the German/Austrian firms like Voigtlander which was one of the first to use (or abuse) Joseph Petzval's breakthrough lens design and the Hungarian Joseph Petzval got very little financial rumination for his ingenuity of optical design and was ripped off by many optical firms, including Voigtlander .

Thank you for this.

 

[goamules]

Ross trained Dallmeyer....he married his daughter. That's how Dallmeyer got his start, from Ross.

I very seriously doubt it's a magic lantern/projector lens. Ross didn't make those that early (I can tell it's early by several features). What is the serial number, and it is engraved "Rofs" or "Ross"? The former, with serial numbers under 4 digits, were before the Waterhouse stop era, but were also way before the projector era, and assuredly a photographic lens. I have a few of them, they're usually very nice. The problem with a Petzval is it have a very narrow angle of view, about 35 degrees. So to get one to cover your 4x5, it would often have to be so big it won't fit on a lensboard....unless slower than the average of F3.6, which they seldom were in the first 20 years. Basically, it can be a paradox to get one to fit a lens board, yet cover 4x5 without vignetting (making a circular image in the middle of your plate). Until you get to the very big cameras, with very big lensboards...

Here are two of my early Ross lenses, one 1840s, one 1850s.

 

[xayraa33]

Ross trained Dallmeyer....he married his daughter. That's how Dallmeyer got his start, from Ross.

I very seriously doubt it's a magic lantern/projector lens. Ross didn't make those that early (I can tell it's early by several features). What is the serial number, and it is engraved "Rofs" or "Ross"? The former, with serial numbers under 4 digits, were before the Waterhouse stop era, but were also way before the projector era, and assuredly a photographic lens. I have a few of them, they're usually very nice. The problem with a Petzval is it have a very narrow angle of view, about 35 degrees. So to get one to cover your 4x5, it would often have to be so big it won't fit on a lensboard....unless slower than the average of F3.6, which they seldom were in the first 20 years. Basically, it can be a paradox to get one to fit a lens board, yet cover 4x5 without vignetting (making a circular image in the middle of your plate). Until you get to the very big cameras, with very big lensboards...

Here are two of my early Ross lenses, one 1840s, one 1850s.

Very nice collection.

Yes, I remember reading about the early Petzval lenses having no Waterhouse stops , as they where introduced in 1858 and the Petzval lens was introduced in 1840.

 

[Nokton48]

More interesting reading. Thank You Goamules. I am curious, what features make you think it's an early Petzval? If it has no markings, would it still likely be a Ross, or made by someone else? I'll look for markings when I get it.

Regarding the narrow angle of coverage, perhaps I should go back to my first idea, which is attaching this to the makiflexes, which are 9x9cm (or 6.5x9cm) rather than 4x5.

With fast film I should be able to work hand held which would be fun and different for me with Makiflex. Of course I would need a tripod with the J Lane dry plates (only ASA 2). More times than not I work with a tripod.


Ross Lens 3 by Nokton48, on Flickr

One more question, what do you think about the lens having a built in central stop? Should I consider removing this to increase the relative speed? Or would it likely be F3.5 as it is? Or is it always going to be a slow Petzval? Actually I was hoping for F3.0

 

[Nokton48]

Dallmeyer 1B Long 1 by Nokton48, on Flickr


Here's a Dallmeyer 1B (long) in fantastic condition. This one sold years ago for $399 (I'd prolly have bought it!) 🙂
Does it look this way because the lacquer has been removed and it has been polished?

My Ross seems similar in overall dimensions and design. Hopefully it will perform as well as the Dallmeyer.

 

[goamules]

Hi Nokton,
I should have asked to see the engraving. If there is not anything engraved, it's not a Ross. They always proudly marked their lenses, all of the early Petzval makers did. I had a hunch it may not have been a Ross, the way the elements screwed in didn't look right. Also, the lacquer is more yellow/orange, which is how later Darlots are. As is the knob mount, but not the knob itself. I'd be interested to hear what it is, when you get it. The deep hood is characteristic of early lenses, pre Dallmeyer era.

As you may know, the french makers typically wrote on the side of the lens glass. You can see it looking at an angle, or gently remove the glass (to confirm the rear is configured right, you need to do that). Typically French makers that usually mark the glass are Jamin, Darlot, and Hermagis. Lerebours and Derogy sometimes did, but not always.

 

[goamules]

If you go over to the Large Format forum, you will learn a lot more about the Petzvals (I think I saw you there though)