Rumor: Full frame Zeiss Ikon digital rangefinder in development

[Olsen]

A digital ZM will be a technical challenge far more difficult with a CMOS sensor than with Leica's CCD. I would not exclude that it is not possible, but....

The second challenge will be to meet the American market's wish for a $ 3,500 digital ZM. That would make it a totally uninteresting business proposition.

While Leica spend all the money on DRF development, Zeiss & Cosina are laughing all the way to the bank, due to the lens business success that these DRF's are making for them. Why should Zeiss & Cosina risk all that good money....? Trying to make a good DRF camera is difficult and risky. To a price lower than, say, 6 - 7,000 $ it is totally uninteresting...

 

[Spoks]

There is already a $ 3,500 digital rangefinder on the market: Just any 2.hand M8.

 

[Pickett Wilson]

I think the market has moved away from the quest for a FF digital RF. It's far more likely to be a FF mirrorless AF camera that will accept adapted M lenses would be what anyone would make. My guess is that Leica will be the first and the last maker of a FF digital RF.

 

[ZeissFan]

As long as you recognize that it's a rumor and not fact, have fun.

"Our source" could mean anything from a discussion with the janitor to an engineer to overhearing two people talking on the street. You just have to accept that it's a baseless rumor. There is a difference between skilled reporting and some idiot with a computer and an Internet connection.

 

[Trius]

I too agree that $3.5K is quite a remote possibility. I would guess there is no profit margin at that price point. And even if there were, WHY would they price it at 1/2 the price of the M9? They could get more (at least $500) without hurting sales (at least too much,) and it would not be in Zeiss' interest to hurt Leica as badly as the $3,500 price would. Competing with your rival is one thing, seriously wounding them when there are only two games in town is quite another.

 

[Jodorowsky]

Gee, some people just don't even like the idea....

 

[Frankie]

Every time when a new thread like this starts, there are always nay-sayers who argue:

1. It is impossible...forgeting Epson/Cosina and Leica have already done it somehow, from APS sizes to FF.
2. The [unknown] price will be too high...ignoring the benchmark prices of the RD-1, M8 and M9 already accepted by the market.
3. I am not interested unless the price is low enough...without realizing the price premium is prepaying for film/processing for the life of the camera [ownership period], in addition to scanning cost.

We must look at published statements in terms of its time:

• Kobayashi San said he was not interested, but accepted a PO from Epson, then why not Zeiss?
• Zeiss said technology was not yet mature, but that was 5 years ago...technolgy waited for no one. Zeiss's partner Sony had since introduced its own FF DSLR, developed newer chips, supplied even to third-party like Nikon...
• Film sales continue to decline, despite wishful thinking form the die-hard's.

Lastly, no manufacturer worth its salt will be happy to always be a bridesmaid (make only lenses for others) but never a bride (make cameras, at least for its own lens).

Given a choice, the niche market should be avoided...but Zeiss and Cosina had chosen the M-mount long ago. Besides, how many D3 and 1~5D users would give up auto-focus and buy Zeiss lenses, regardless of price?

Zeiss and Cosina had no choice but to do or die. When facing that choice, innovations tend to happen...I am happy to stayed tuned, at least fodder for fantasy.

 

[Trius]

Jodo: Well, I really do like the idea. If it can give b&w results similar to the R-D1, I would be in assuming I could fund it.

Frankie: Zeiss can survive without being in this niche due to the other sectors where they have quite a nice business. Cosina probably the same, though they certainly don't have the strength of Zeiss.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Every time when a new thread like this starts, there are always nay-sayers who argue:

1. It is impossible...forgeting Epson/Cosina and Leica have already done it somehow, from APS sizes to FF.
2. The [unknown] price will be too high...ignoring the benchmark prices of the RD-1, M8 and M9 already accepted by the market.
3. I am not interested unless the price is low enough...without realizing the price premium is prepaying for film/processing for the life of the camera [ownership period], in addition to scanning cost.

We must look at published statements in terms of its time:

• Kobayashi San said he was not interested, but accepted a PO from Epson, then why not Zeiss?
• Zeiss said technology was not yet mature, but that was 5 years ago...technolgy waited for no one. Zeiss's partner Sony had since introduced its own FF DSLR, developed newer chips, supplied even to third-party like Nikon...
• Film sales continue to decline, despite wishful thinking form the die-hard's.

Lastly, no manufacturer worth its salt will be happy to always be a bridesmaid (make only lenses for others) but never a bride (make cameras, at least for its own lens).

Given a choice, the niche market should be avoided...but Zeiss and Cosina had chosen the M-mount long ago. Besides, how many D3 and 1~5D users would give up auto-focus and buy Zeiss lenses, regardless of price?

Zeiss and Cosina had no choice but to do or die. When facing that choice, innovations tend to happen...I am happy to stayed tuned, at least fodder for fantasy.

Dear Frankie,

Basically, no.

For the first three:

Everyone has always admitted it was possible at a price.

The price has to be low enough to undercut Leica AFTER paying for the R&D (or why buy something else?).

Plenty look at the lifetime cost, but also know how much they can afford for the up-front price.

For the third three:

My understanding was that the RD1 was a labour of love among some Epson and Cosina engineers, not a 'PO' (whatever that is). Have you met Kobayashi-san and talked to him?

Sony chips are for DSLRs, not RFs.

'Do or die' is sheer nonsense. Commercially, Zeiss doesn't give a toss -- they don't make cameras and are a huge trust -- and Cosina's RFs are a profitable hobby, not a major profit centre.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

The key word is RUMOR.

I'll add that it will be Contax mount. Basis for that? NOTHING. Like most rumours, really.

Cheers,

R.

WOW! A Full-frame Contax Mount D-RF!

This is Great! After all, what other would Zeiss even THINK of doing.

And it will not split the market either!

BRILLIANT!

Only can be called a Labor of Love.

Now, if we can get Nikon to do a Full-frame Digital Back for the SP, like an S36 drive- but digital.

(Roger, you may now reinforce the baseless rumor with Blatant Lies. Been a bad weekend, and this is cheering me up)

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I read online that Contax II cameras were being converted to FF D-RF's. The removable back makes it easy to incorporate a Digital Sensor, much like the Nikon F3/ DCS camera back. The little metal latchy thingy at the top of the curtain was being used for sync. A very small sensor periscopes up and reads the Shutter Speed set on the Contax Dial.

 

[climbing_vine]

As long as you recognize that it's a rumor and not fact, have fun.

"Our source" could mean anything from a discussion with the janitor to an engineer to overhearing two people talking on the street. You just have to accept that it's a baseless rumor. There is a difference between skilled reporting and some idiot with a computer and an Internet connection.

Yes. The idiot with the computer and an Internet connection publishes rumors while the skilled reporter just makes it up.

 

[micromontenegro]

I read online that Contax II cameras were being converted to FF D-RF's. The removable back makes it easy to incorporate a Digital Sensor, much like the Nikon F3/ DCS camera back. The little metal latchy thingy at the top of the curtain was being used for sync. A very small sensor periscopes up and reads the Shutter Speed set on the Contax Dial.

I am currently making such a conversion on my Contax IIIa, but the smaller body only accepts the APS sized sensor! OTOH, the light meter housing is dandy for the ultrasonic autofocus unit.

 

[Roger Hicks]

WOW! A Full-frame Contax Mount D-RF!

This is Great! After all, what other would Zeiss even THINK of doing.

And it will not split the market either!

BRILLIANT!

Only can be called a Labor of Love.

Now, if we can get Nikon to do a Full-frame Digital Back for the SP, like an S36 drive- but digital.

(Roger, you may now reinforce the baseless rumor with Blatant Lies. Been a bad weekend, and this is cheering me up)

Hey, Brian, you're an Industry Source. So am I! This one can run and run...

(Sorry it's been a bad week-end).

Cheers,

R.

 

[Ronald M]

I am sure it come up periodically at CV and Zeiss board meetings. It is daunting task that Leica had to undertake to survive. We will see if it works.

 

[Olsen]

I think the market has moved away from the quest for a FF digital RF. It's far more likely to be a FF mirrorless AF camera that will accept adapted M lenses would be what anyone would make. My guess is that Leica will be the first and the last maker of a FF digital RF.

Indeed,

What if Hasselblad/Zeiss made a 'digital SWC' with AF?

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Sony has a target volume of 10 times of what is possible to sell of any DRF camera. That's how it is possible to sell them so cheap. Except for that Sony don't make any profit on their cameras, these days.

Well if they are losing money on a per-unit basis, it makes D-RF's much more viable. They are low production items so there will be less units to lose money on.

 

[bwcolor]

I heard that Zeiss has been test marketing this new RF on Mars. Of course, it is just a rumor.

 

[Frankie]

My understanding was that the RD1 was a labour of love among some Epson and Cosina engineers, not a 'PO' (whatever that is). Have you met Kobayashi-san and talked to him?

Sony chips are for DSLRs, not RFs.

'Do or die' is sheer nonsense.

A PO is a common enough acronym in the real world for Purchase Order, where a labour of love ends and labour for earnings begins. No labour of love amongst engineers will come to a stage where serious company resources are deployed...unless sanctioned by the boss, and for profit; presuming the boss not also working for love [of digital, which he had long confessed not].

And I have not met Ernst Leitz, Stefen Schmit-Heni, nor Herr Kaufmann either.

A chip is a chip, whatever application is "thereafter". I am sure Sony engineers are not so stupid as to be unaware of RF's special requirements...in a much as Kodak engineers not aware of Leica's equally special requirement when developing the last generation 6.8 micron chips...now salvaged and used in an M9.

To develop a chip, you first make it sensitive, then low-noise and even, then big, then bigger. Applications came later.

"Do or die" can be taken literally or loosely...die like Contax (Kyocera), Yashica, Konica, Minolta... We all know not whole such companies die, nor would Zeiss as a foundation die, ever. Only the failing division, as was Zeiss (Oberkochen) Photogrammetry division, leader in that business since well before the WW I, but died (killed) in 1995/6 having been made irrelevant by digital technology.

Nobody in the photogrammetric mapping world believed Zeiss will ever withdraw...but they did.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Zeiss Microscopes use Digital Cameras. I cancelled a $130,000 PO on one. They could not make spec and dropped the product line. It was their "Deep-View" technology that used Phase Plates. "Not Longer Available" as shown in this brochure.

http://www.zeiss.com/C1256D18002CC306/0/5F7D6EE4F2929329C1256D59003351A9/$file/46-0015_e.pdf

Zeiss, Digital, Microscopes. Well, two out of three Ain't bad...