Bill Pierce
Well-known
For those of you who haven't seen it, I wanted to point out a very informative piece on Leica's S2.
http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/leica/page154/page154.html
Leica S2: its significance (august 9, 2009) from Erwin Puts
While there is little question that this will be a good camera for its proposed users, the real question is "Will people buy it?" or, perhaps, "If you already own a digital medium format system (and you do if you are in the target market) can you afford 2 bodies (the only insurance against an on-the-job equipment failure) and 2 to 4 lenses?" I have to say that those people I've talked to who are involved in that world have doubts.
I think you may find the piece of interest, and I would love to hear your thoughts because we are talking about the future of the company that does produce the number one rangefinder camera.
Bill
http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/leica/page154/page154.html
Leica S2: its significance (august 9, 2009) from Erwin Puts
While there is little question that this will be a good camera for its proposed users, the real question is "Will people buy it?" or, perhaps, "If you already own a digital medium format system (and you do if you are in the target market) can you afford 2 bodies (the only insurance against an on-the-job equipment failure) and 2 to 4 lenses?" I have to say that those people I've talked to who are involved in that world have doubts.
I think you may find the piece of interest, and I would love to hear your thoughts because we are talking about the future of the company that does produce the number one rangefinder camera.
Bill
I believe the Leica S2 is a flagship prestige product,
mostly made for fame just to show the world Leica can do it,
its not a for profit product.
whether its worth the effort for Leica,
time will tell.
Stephen
mostly made for fame just to show the world Leica can do it,
its not a for profit product.
whether its worth the effort for Leica,
time will tell.
Stephen
BillBingham2
Registered User
I think it is a for profit item, but not profit from a low volume perspective. Leica must keep the folks over there busy and this sort of camera is perfect. Few if any hobbiest will purchase, but if Leica advertises it correctly to the ADs of the world, they will help create the pull. From a business perspective it's a great approach. Easier to charge a lot for hand made cameras to companies that will write of the investment than orthodontists.
If the ADs want that Leica look, if they demand the highest number of bits, if, heck lots of ifs but any cash flow is good these days. While the market for M4/3s lenses is growing, they can not produce them with enough margin (the magic word) to keep the company afloat.
Not the Leica that I would buy, but heck neither was the R9.
I think it's a big thumbs up if they can market the heck out of it and create a buzz.
B2 (;->
If the ADs want that Leica look, if they demand the highest number of bits, if, heck lots of ifs but any cash flow is good these days. While the market for M4/3s lenses is growing, they can not produce them with enough margin (the magic word) to keep the company afloat.
Not the Leica that I would buy, but heck neither was the R9.
I think it's a big thumbs up if they can market the heck out of it and create a buzz.
B2 (;->
tmfabian
I met a man once...
i'm significantly surprised by the pre-ordering of these systems. A friend of mine runs a camera store here in Boston and he's already had several pre-orders for the S2, which include a pretty hefty deposit. He's been surprised by the demand for the S2, especially since his store has never moved a leica product off it's shelves in the 2 years since he took over the shop.
my opinion on the camera is that it will be a very good camera, however I'm uncertain of it's future...there have been many superb camera systems that have failed in the market place before, i suppose only time will tell.
my opinion on the camera is that it will be a very good camera, however I'm uncertain of it's future...there have been many superb camera systems that have failed in the market place before, i suppose only time will tell.
daveywaugh
Blah
I am not a professional photographer but I do work for many (as a designer and retoucher). I can tell you that generally people are very excited. Of course it's a 'for profit' venture for Leica and to think otherwise is misguided IMO. The S2 surely is of incredible importance to the company now and in the future.
I obviously haven't used it or even seen the thing, but on paper it is a pretty unique product and could really offer something new to professionals (it's has clear selling advantages over much of it's competition I feel). I am just a smuck OK, with no experience to really back this statement up, but I believe it will be a HUGE success over time. It will take a couple of years perhaps (and possible an S3) but I think it's a fantastic direction and bodes well for Leica's future.
I obviously haven't used it or even seen the thing, but on paper it is a pretty unique product and could really offer something new to professionals (it's has clear selling advantages over much of it's competition I feel). I am just a smuck OK, with no experience to really back this statement up, but I believe it will be a HUGE success over time. It will take a couple of years perhaps (and possible an S3) but I think it's a fantastic direction and bodes well for Leica's future.
Merkin
For the Weekend
First of all, IS leica the number one rangefinder camera manufacturer? Are more brand new M cameras sold in a given year than any of its competitors? I don't know, I am curious.
I personally think that the best thing Leica could do would be to focus on becoming a lens manufacturer, like Zeiss did once they quit making their own Contaxes. If you had the option of Leica glass versus Canon glass for your dslr, or leica vs nikon, or leica vs zeiss for your Hasselblad, it would be a very tough decision. Leica has shown that they are completely capable of remaining on the cutting edge of lens design for the last 50 years, but they have consistently shown that they have been 10 to 30 years behind the times on camera design. Let's be honest- if the M8 had had been branded with any other company's name, it would have been an instant flop at its price point. After the M3, Leica has essentially been resting on its laurels as far as innovative camera design goes. How long did it take for their M cameras to get metering (and how long would it have taken were it not for minolta)? How long for Aperture Priority? How long for autofocus m mount lenses? Oh wait! There are no autofocus M mount lenses? The Nikon F mount is nearly as old, but they started autofocusing in the eighties...
The thing that has kept Leica going despite these demonstrable faults and 20 year lags with current technology has been their consistently fantastic lens design. Sure, a certain percentage of M leica body purchasers are in it for the nostalgia, the mystique, the fleeting promise that the camera will bestow upon them some supernatural channelling of famous Leica photographers past, but the only reason to have ever bought an R system camera was the fantastic lenses. Therefore, IMHO, if Leica is smart (and yes, I am fully aware that they are not 'listening,' if I thought they were listening, I wouldn't bother), they will capitalize on their true strength, lenses, and, with the exception of a few M bodies, get out of the camera body game entirely in favor of making a much broader selection of lenses.
I am now ready to be shot down in flames.
I personally think that the best thing Leica could do would be to focus on becoming a lens manufacturer, like Zeiss did once they quit making their own Contaxes. If you had the option of Leica glass versus Canon glass for your dslr, or leica vs nikon, or leica vs zeiss for your Hasselblad, it would be a very tough decision. Leica has shown that they are completely capable of remaining on the cutting edge of lens design for the last 50 years, but they have consistently shown that they have been 10 to 30 years behind the times on camera design. Let's be honest- if the M8 had had been branded with any other company's name, it would have been an instant flop at its price point. After the M3, Leica has essentially been resting on its laurels as far as innovative camera design goes. How long did it take for their M cameras to get metering (and how long would it have taken were it not for minolta)? How long for Aperture Priority? How long for autofocus m mount lenses? Oh wait! There are no autofocus M mount lenses? The Nikon F mount is nearly as old, but they started autofocusing in the eighties...
The thing that has kept Leica going despite these demonstrable faults and 20 year lags with current technology has been their consistently fantastic lens design. Sure, a certain percentage of M leica body purchasers are in it for the nostalgia, the mystique, the fleeting promise that the camera will bestow upon them some supernatural channelling of famous Leica photographers past, but the only reason to have ever bought an R system camera was the fantastic lenses. Therefore, IMHO, if Leica is smart (and yes, I am fully aware that they are not 'listening,' if I thought they were listening, I wouldn't bother), they will capitalize on their true strength, lenses, and, with the exception of a few M bodies, get out of the camera body game entirely in favor of making a much broader selection of lenses.
I am now ready to be shot down in flames.
Andy Kibber
Well-known
I think that the S2 is a great idea (larger than FF sensor in a roughly FF body) and Leica is smart to target true professionals rather than rich hobbiests. Best of luck to 'em, says I.
As for Leica lenses for other systems, if I could get a couple Leica AF primes in Nikon mount, I'd be very happy (as would many others, I'm sure). Making such lenses would be a smart move, but I imagine Canikon isn't too thrilled with the idea.
As for Leica lenses for other systems, if I could get a couple Leica AF primes in Nikon mount, I'd be very happy (as would many others, I'm sure). Making such lenses would be a smart move, but I imagine Canikon isn't too thrilled with the idea.
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
I can't believe professionals are pre-ordering a system that nobody has seen a raw file from yet. That doesn't make sense.
Ronald_H
Don't call me Ron
Guilty as charged. But I think you are right. Leicas are special, but in many ways flawed and outrageously expensive.
I love my M2 DR Summicron combo... but Leicas you buy with the heart, not the head. Maybe it will be different for the S2, but that's completely out of my league.
historicist
Well-known
My personal theory based on nothing whatsoever is that they are going for a niche composed of really rich people who want something fancier than a d3x and the kind of professionals who rue the passing of the Pentax 67.
It offers something the d3x doesn't (big sensor) and something no other medium format digital does (slr size and handling). That seems like quite clever positioning to me, because lets face it, if they'd made a R10 it would have been more expensive than a top end Japanese DLSR, probably not as good or flawed in some ways, and you can put R glass on a Canon anyway.
It offers something the d3x doesn't (big sensor) and something no other medium format digital does (slr size and handling). That seems like quite clever positioning to me, because lets face it, if they'd made a R10 it would have been more expensive than a top end Japanese DLSR, probably not as good or flawed in some ways, and you can put R glass on a Canon anyway.
semordnilap
Well-known
Somewhere I heard national geographic photographers thrown around as a potential market. Fully weather-sealed and all...
FifthLeaf
amateur
Check this out: http://www.joelsartore.com/adventure/faq.php#salary National Geographic photographers don't get paid all that much.
Canon has a weather-sealed product for significantly less than $22K. I don't know much about the fashion community, but that's the only place this camera seems to fit. Who else gets paid enough to afford a camera this expensive? Aside from a few hobbyists who can afford million dollar sports cars and $10K umbrella stands, no one else has the cash.