ssmc
Well-known
Ok so I succumbed to a bad case of GAS and bought an S3 2000 kit (with 50/1.4 "Olympic" lens, never-ready case and all the boxes and stuff), but since I can't read the Japanese manual I have a few questions. Bear in mind I have never laid hands on any Nikon RF until I got this one.
Also, this camera appears new and may not have had a single roll of film put through it - do they "break in" with use?
- is it normal for the "razor wheel" to turn much easier in one direction (toward close focus) than the other, and have some slight backlash in the gears?
- the advance lever, shutter speed dial and A-R dial are really stiff. They feel precise, but very firm. I take it this is okay?
- the VF is excellent (bright and clear, as are the framelines) but the RF "patch" is the worst I've ever seen (actually I can't really "see" the edges at all, just a vague yellowish blob of no particular shape). I thought my Fuji GW690III was pretty average but this is really something else. It looks more like what I'd expect to see on an original body with 50 years of hard use, not a 2000-edition. Also normal for this camera?
Now for the part that's actually worrying me: the RF is out of whack vertically and possibly out of calibration too, but it's hard to tell until I get the vertical alignment sorted
. Is this something you'd expect to see on an unused (?) S3 2000? The camera is cosmetically absolutely perfect and I am scared to take a screwdriver anywhere near it. The lens and body serial numbers match the stickers on the box so I assume they were matched at the factory. Is adjusting the RF a job for a pro?
Thanks,
Scott
Also, this camera appears new and may not have had a single roll of film put through it - do they "break in" with use?
- is it normal for the "razor wheel" to turn much easier in one direction (toward close focus) than the other, and have some slight backlash in the gears?
- the advance lever, shutter speed dial and A-R dial are really stiff. They feel precise, but very firm. I take it this is okay?
- the VF is excellent (bright and clear, as are the framelines) but the RF "patch" is the worst I've ever seen (actually I can't really "see" the edges at all, just a vague yellowish blob of no particular shape). I thought my Fuji GW690III was pretty average but this is really something else. It looks more like what I'd expect to see on an original body with 50 years of hard use, not a 2000-edition. Also normal for this camera?
Now for the part that's actually worrying me: the RF is out of whack vertically and possibly out of calibration too, but it's hard to tell until I get the vertical alignment sorted
. Is this something you'd expect to see on an unused (?) S3 2000? The camera is cosmetically absolutely perfect and I am scared to take a screwdriver anywhere near it. The lens and body serial numbers match the stickers on the box so I assume they were matched at the factory. Is adjusting the RF a job for a pro?Thanks,
Scott
x-ray
Veteran
I hate to say this but you should get your camera checked by a qualified repairman if for no other reason than the RF adjustment. You should not take a screw driver to it.
I purchased a 2000 kit new several years ago and used it some and sold it after three or four years. It was a great instrument and the line was exceptional but I really disliked the non paralax VF and that miserable focusing wheel.
I never experienced any backlash or binding in any operation. Winding was asceasy as a nikon f, pentax spotmatic, minolta or Leica. Focusing was free and smooth. Shuttervspeeds were positive but not too tight. If you've ever used a Nikon F or F2 the 2000 is about the same. The RD patch isn't on par with the ZM Zeiss or Leice M but still distinct andveasybto focus. Out of alignment coupled with the other issues suggests the camera has had rough treatment orvthe lube is dry which is very unlikely.
Do you have a warranty or return period? Is it from a dealer. I would question the treatment of this camera.
I purchased a 2000 kit new several years ago and used it some and sold it after three or four years. It was a great instrument and the line was exceptional but I really disliked the non paralax VF and that miserable focusing wheel.
I never experienced any backlash or binding in any operation. Winding was asceasy as a nikon f, pentax spotmatic, minolta or Leica. Focusing was free and smooth. Shuttervspeeds were positive but not too tight. If you've ever used a Nikon F or F2 the 2000 is about the same. The RD patch isn't on par with the ZM Zeiss or Leice M but still distinct andveasybto focus. Out of alignment coupled with the other issues suggests the camera has had rough treatment orvthe lube is dry which is very unlikely.
Do you have a warranty or return period? Is it from a dealer. I would question the treatment of this camera.
I don't know anyone who actually uses the focus wheel. As stated, the RF edge is fuzzy, but normal.
Vincent.G
Well-known
I had a S3 2000 kit (black paint) for a short while. The focus patch is not as good as a Leica as described. Focus patch edges are fuzzy and the VF flares. The solution of putting a piece of blue filter may help with the focus patch contrast but I did not try it. Focusing experience involves a little more cranking than I like compared to a Leica but is it useful for precise focusing wide open.
The camera i had operates smoothly. Very refined controls. The problems you mentioned should be easily solved by a competent technician instead of DIY unless you know what you are doing.
I sold my Nikon RF kit because I prefer Leica's VF and RF patch. They are more comfortable to use.
Focusing experience involves a little more cranking than I like compared to a Leica but is it useful for precise focusing wide open.The camera i had operates smoothly. Very refined controls. The problems you mentioned should be easily solved by a competent technician instead of DIY unless you know what you are doing.
I sold my Nikon RF kit because I prefer Leica's VF and RF patch. They are more comfortable to use.
ssmc
Well-known
Thanks for all the replies - it sounds like my camera is okay! Now I have some thinking about what to do next
I tried holding a light-green flash gel over the VF window and even that made a marked improvement in contrast so I think I'll try the CC20B filter - that's a great tip! I think I'd better skip the morning coffee before I take off the front cover, though
As far as adjusting the RF goes, I managed to shim the focusing screen on my D700 without scratching or bending anything so I think I'll give it a shot myself. I've seen pics of the adjustments for an S2, and I think I can see the vertical adjuster in the pics in the color filter thread (if it's in the same place) - but how do you get to the infinity adjuster on an S3? Do you have to take the shoe off? Any help with that would be greatly appreciated!
I didn't mean the focus helicoid was stiff or binding - turning the lens itself is actually very easy and smooth in both directions (almost too easy - I keep getting stuck at the infinity lock!) but when using the wheel, it takes less force to go in than out and there's about 1 "tooth" of backlash when you change direction before anything happens. Since I'd normally just turn the lens I don't think this will be an issue, but I was curious if it was "normal". As for the controls, they're also not binding, just firmer than I expected. I guess after a lifetime of lightly-built amateur SLRs and, ahem... "very well used" RFs the S3 just surprised me by how tight and mechanical-feeling it is. Especially the shutter - that vibrationless "snick" is just gorgeous!
Regards,
Scott
I tried holding a light-green flash gel over the VF window and even that made a marked improvement in contrast so I think I'll try the CC20B filter - that's a great tip! I think I'd better skip the morning coffee before I take off the front cover, though
As far as adjusting the RF goes, I managed to shim the focusing screen on my D700 without scratching or bending anything so I think I'll give it a shot myself. I've seen pics of the adjustments for an S2, and I think I can see the vertical adjuster in the pics in the color filter thread (if it's in the same place) - but how do you get to the infinity adjuster on an S3? Do you have to take the shoe off? Any help with that would be greatly appreciated!
I didn't mean the focus helicoid was stiff or binding - turning the lens itself is actually very easy and smooth in both directions (almost too easy - I keep getting stuck at the infinity lock!) but when using the wheel, it takes less force to go in than out and there's about 1 "tooth" of backlash when you change direction before anything happens. Since I'd normally just turn the lens I don't think this will be an issue, but I was curious if it was "normal". As for the controls, they're also not binding, just firmer than I expected. I guess after a lifetime of lightly-built amateur SLRs and, ahem... "very well used" RFs the S3 just surprised me by how tight and mechanical-feeling it is. Especially the shutter - that vibrationless "snick" is just gorgeous!
Regards,
Scott
Highway 61
Revisited
Over the past years I have purchased several Nikon RF bodies off Internet shops or at auction and then, all of them came to me in the mail, and all of them arrived with misaligned RFs.
Seems that they don't hold shipping bumps well, and this can be seen as a con, but if you think of it twice it's rather a pro, because it tells that the RF can be adjusted and adjusted and ajusted over the camera life - on some other famous RF cameras brand models, sometimes once the RF has got out ot alignment it cannot just be home adjusted and the camera must be sent out for service and this costs $$$...
The S3 RF gets adjusted the very same way as the S2 one, was it vertically or horizontally. You just need to remove the front panel, so it's a very good opportunity to install the blue filter and lubricate the focusing helicoid with a bit of lithium grease so that it doesn't squeak any longer...
Yet there is a warning re. the vertical adjustment : you have to unscrew a very small set screw then turn a small gearwheel then secure the set screw back.
But when you tighten the set screw, it makes the gearwheel move a bit so you have to anticipate what the gearwheel position will be when the set screw is tightened so that you get a perfect vertical alignment.
Also, be gentle with that set screw, because it has non standard metric threads, and if you break its head, you are putting yourself in a real mess. It happened to me once on a Nikon S2 and luckily I could find a replacement screw which was a good fit in my spares box, but don't get there.
Horizontal adjustment is casual and very easy, you just need a target located at 1km at least - if you live in a large city with big buildings in the background it's easy.
Some people recommend to use the moon as the infinity target, but I don't find it to be easy, it brightens too much.
Seems that they don't hold shipping bumps well, and this can be seen as a con, but if you think of it twice it's rather a pro, because it tells that the RF can be adjusted and adjusted and ajusted over the camera life - on some other famous RF cameras brand models, sometimes once the RF has got out ot alignment it cannot just be home adjusted and the camera must be sent out for service and this costs $$$...
The S3 RF gets adjusted the very same way as the S2 one, was it vertically or horizontally. You just need to remove the front panel, so it's a very good opportunity to install the blue filter and lubricate the focusing helicoid with a bit of lithium grease so that it doesn't squeak any longer...
Yet there is a warning re. the vertical adjustment : you have to unscrew a very small set screw then turn a small gearwheel then secure the set screw back.
But when you tighten the set screw, it makes the gearwheel move a bit so you have to anticipate what the gearwheel position will be when the set screw is tightened so that you get a perfect vertical alignment.
Also, be gentle with that set screw, because it has non standard metric threads, and if you break its head, you are putting yourself in a real mess. It happened to me once on a Nikon S2 and luckily I could find a replacement screw which was a good fit in my spares box, but don't get there.
Horizontal adjustment is casual and very easy, you just need a target located at 1km at least - if you live in a large city with big buildings in the background it's easy.
Some people recommend to use the moon as the infinity target, but I don't find it to be easy, it brightens too much.
ssmc
Well-known
Highway 61 - Thanks for the info!
Final dumb questions - how does one dismantle the helicoid to grease it? I assume just a tiny amount of grease will do? Any particular brand/type of lithium grease recommended? I read somewhere that certain greases can become acidic with age and eat into aluminum - is this a thing of the past or does it still happen?
I can't wait to put some film through this thing)
Scott
Final dumb questions - how does one dismantle the helicoid to grease it? I assume just a tiny amount of grease will do? Any particular brand/type of lithium grease recommended? I read somewhere that certain greases can become acidic with age and eat into aluminum - is this a thing of the past or does it still happen?
I can't wait to put some film through this thing
)Scott
VinceC
Veteran
Most Leica users hate the Nikon indistinct focus patch. On the other hand, as a die-hard Nikon user, I like the fact that a well-focused image is much less cluttered without that distinct rectangle dead centre of the picture.
It sounds unusual for these cameras to have out-of-allignment focus new out-of-the-box. Most of them had excellent quality control. Usually, Nikons store extremely well for long periods without usage.
It sounds unusual for these cameras to have out-of-allignment focus new out-of-the-box. Most of them had excellent quality control. Usually, Nikons store extremely well for long periods without usage.
steveyork
Well-known
I've been putting a first roll of plus-x through an S2 after years and years and years using Leica Ms. The indistinct rangefinder patch is really a non-issue for me, because after all that time with a rangefinder my eye naturally goes directly to the center of the viewfinder to focus (which parenthetically is the reason I enjoy and have no problem focusing the original Leicaflex). More of a concern is the lack of contrast with nikon rangefinders, but that seems correctable as outlined above.
I really enjoy the compact nature of these cameras.
I really enjoy the compact nature of these cameras.
Highway 61
Revisited
It's pretty easy. First, you take the helicoid off the camera chassis, altogether with the infinity lock release arm (three screws). Then you remove the helicoid infinity lock (two screws). Then you take the male part of the helicoid off the female part of it by fully turning the male part towards close focus : when they disengage one from each other pay attention to where they do this (take note of the matching distance numbers and indexes, because this is a three-points engaging helicoid so you want to make sure you further re-rengage them at the good coupling point). Then you can clean the chrome plated brass of each part of the helicoid with ultrafine steelwool, then you blow the steelwool powder away with some compressed air, then you clean the two parts of the helicoid with dishwashing soap and an used toothbrush, then you dry them with an hairdryer, then you lube the male part with a light film of white lithium grease (Weldtite or Loctite brands are fine) applied with a small brush and you reassemble, and you get a butter smooth focusing.
Riccis
Well-known
OK, can I piggy back with my newbie question on this thread? How bright or clear are these viewfinders supposed to be? I am asking because my SP focusing window is not as clear as the one with the 28mm/35mm framelines.
Thanks,
Thanks,
ssmc
Well-known
Many thanks for the detailed description of how it all comes apart/goes together. I think I can manage that!
Scott
alfredian
Well-known
"Fuzzy, indistinct" = "unobtrusive"
"Fuzzy, indistinct" = "unobtrusive"
As a user, not a mechanic, the Nikon RFs are a different breed with a different strategy. The RF patch has "feathered" edges and that yellowish tint (not pinkish as some other older RF) so as to remain unobtrusive, NOT "front & center." With experience you come to appreciate the Nikon patch as being there when you need it, then, well, it is SO easy to ignore while you compose the picture.
You can't do the "split image" option very well, but the superimposing bit works well. The ultimate Nikon RF (my opine) is the S2 - one single 50mm frame line and the so-easy-to-ignore RF patch.
Oh, and the wheel-thingy is good with the CV 50/2.5 Skopar as well - small, light and easier to focus with the wheelie than the lens ring.
DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER. No, but seriously, should you ever be mounting an External-Bayonet lens, vintage or new, be sure to put both CAMERA BODY and LENS focus scales to infinity. Cosina-V. do a great job at warning you about this for their lenses. Internal bayos are not a prob. Enjoy.
"Fuzzy, indistinct" = "unobtrusive"
As a user, not a mechanic, the Nikon RFs are a different breed with a different strategy. The RF patch has "feathered" edges and that yellowish tint (not pinkish as some other older RF) so as to remain unobtrusive, NOT "front & center." With experience you come to appreciate the Nikon patch as being there when you need it, then, well, it is SO easy to ignore while you compose the picture.
You can't do the "split image" option very well, but the superimposing bit works well. The ultimate Nikon RF (my opine) is the S2 - one single 50mm frame line and the so-easy-to-ignore RF patch.
Oh, and the wheel-thingy is good with the CV 50/2.5 Skopar as well - small, light and easier to focus with the wheelie than the lens ring.
DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER. No, but seriously, should you ever be mounting an External-Bayonet lens, vintage or new, be sure to put both CAMERA BODY and LENS focus scales to infinity. Cosina-V. do a great job at warning you about this for their lenses. Internal bayos are not a prob. Enjoy.
ssmc
Well-known
There is so much excellent advice and info in this thread - you guys seriously rock!
Scott
Scott
furcafe
Veteran
Me, too. I've bought 6 different Nikon RF bodies over the years, including an S2, an S3 2000, an SP 2005, & 4 different SPs (don't ask). All were shipped via mail/Fedex/UPS & none of them had misaligned RFs.
ssmc
Well-known
Got it done - yay!
Got it done - yay!
Just wanted to say a big Happy New Year thank-you for all the advice re: adjusting the S3 RF. It really is a lot simpler (and less "traumatic") than I expected. The vertical alignment took a few tries but I got it licked, then I used the first-quarter moon for the infinity adjustment as it's high in the sky during the afternoon today (I can imagine it would be unusable at night).
I particularly like the way the front cover plate is "sprung" so that it holds the screws tight without using any kind of locking compound - brilliant! (actually removing those 4 screws was the part I was dreading - how much force would I have to put on them, would I slip and scratch something, etc., so discovering this was a great relief!)
I haven't got any white lithium grease (yet) but greasing the helicoid is next on the list!
Regards,
Scott
Got it done - yay!
Just wanted to say a big Happy New Year thank-you for all the advice re: adjusting the S3 RF. It really is a lot simpler (and less "traumatic"
) than I expected. The vertical alignment took a few tries but I got it licked, then I used the first-quarter moon for the infinity adjustment as it's high in the sky during the afternoon today (I can imagine it would be unusable at night). I particularly like the way the front cover plate is "sprung" so that it holds the screws tight without using any kind of locking compound - brilliant! (actually removing those 4 screws was the part I was dreading - how much force would I have to put on them, would I slip and scratch something, etc., so discovering this was a great relief!)
I haven't got any white lithium grease (yet) but greasing the helicoid is next on the list!
Regards,
Scott
Highway 61
Revisited
Moebius or Nye products are excellent but darn expensive. Yet I don't know if they make grease. They make oil, sure, but grease ? Not too sure.
I have greased (with a TINY amount of grease) several Nikon RF bodies helicals using Loctite or Weldtite lithium grease (easily available at your hardware store), as well as several Contax RF bodies helicals, and none of these cameras stopped working yet, and the grease put on the helical have NOT migrated elsewhere since. And all these cameras of mine now have a smooth as silk and silent focusing action.
To each his own but I personally want some well damped focusing helicals (of course well damped does not mean sticky or hard to turn), this isn't only for the noise but this also helps for accurate focusing.
Of course, oil should never be put in a camera focusing helical. Grease only, and high quality lithium one. Modern lithium grease won't separate that quickly into soap and oil.
I have greased (with a TINY amount of grease) several Nikon RF bodies helicals using Loctite or Weldtite lithium grease (easily available at your hardware store), as well as several Contax RF bodies helicals, and none of these cameras stopped working yet, and the grease put on the helical have NOT migrated elsewhere since. And all these cameras of mine now have a smooth as silk and silent focusing action.
To each his own but I personally want some well damped focusing helicals (of course well damped does not mean sticky or hard to turn), this isn't only for the noise but this also helps for accurate focusing.
Of course, oil should never be put in a camera focusing helical. Grease only, and high quality lithium one. Modern lithium grease won't separate that quickly into soap and oil.
ssmc
Well-known
That's the main reason I want to grease it - it spins far too easily, and makes some unpleasant noises which do not seem in keeping with the rest of the camera. In fact operating the aperture ring, which has a very light and smooth action compared to most lenses, turns the entire lens unless I keep my finger on the razor wheel or it's locked at infinity. So yeah a bit of damping in there wouldn't go astray
Scott
Highway 61
Revisited
I too have the original factory Nikon SP repair manual (draft) and yes it tells that the helical, once cleaned, shouldn't be lubricated.
But - I do think that at the time this manual was made (as well as the cameras), the lithium grease which we use to know now didn't exist yet. Main lubricants of that time were of animal origin (seal, mainly) and they were prone to separating and sticking over time.
If you once take apart a Contax helical (which the Nikon helical is a pure clone of, with the same pitch and the same materials), well you see that it was heavily factory lubricated (with seal grease, probably), hence many of them having become very hard to turn - it's quite impossible to find a Contax II or IIa with a free helical unless the camera has been serviced recently.
Using the camera with another lens than the 50 brings the lubricating issue out for sure. This is why, if you want to lubricate the camera body helical (and the external mount lenses helicals as well...) you must first clean the helical very well to remove the oxydation layer, then use very little white lithium grease, typically applied on one half-helical threads with a small brush, then broke on with several rotations from close focus to infinity before you reassemble. You must apply enough grease so that the helical becomes soft and silent, but not grease enough so that the grease will brake the helical.
Basically, a very thin layer all along one half-helical threads will do it.
I agree with Fred about the S3 2000 helical which doesn't seem to have been made within the same tolerances than the classic cameras ones. So you must use the tiniest amount of grease on the S3 2000 helical, unless it might become a bit too firm.
But - I do think that at the time this manual was made (as well as the cameras), the lithium grease which we use to know now didn't exist yet. Main lubricants of that time were of animal origin (seal, mainly) and they were prone to separating and sticking over time.
If you once take apart a Contax helical (which the Nikon helical is a pure clone of, with the same pitch and the same materials), well you see that it was heavily factory lubricated (with seal grease, probably), hence many of them having become very hard to turn - it's quite impossible to find a Contax II or IIa with a free helical unless the camera has been serviced recently.
Using the camera with another lens than the 50 brings the lubricating issue out for sure. This is why, if you want to lubricate the camera body helical (and the external mount lenses helicals as well...) you must first clean the helical very well to remove the oxydation layer, then use very little white lithium grease, typically applied on one half-helical threads with a small brush, then broke on with several rotations from close focus to infinity before you reassemble. You must apply enough grease so that the helical becomes soft and silent, but not grease enough so that the grease will brake the helical.
Basically, a very thin layer all along one half-helical threads will do it.
I agree with Fred about the S3 2000 helical which doesn't seem to have been made within the same tolerances than the classic cameras ones. So you must use the tiniest amount of grease on the S3 2000 helical, unless it might become a bit too firm.
ssmc
Well-known
Once again I have to say "Thanks!" (and Happy New Year ) for the advice, instructions, opinions and very helpful pics in this thread!
Scott
) for the advice, instructions, opinions and very helpful pics in this thread!Scott