Salgado's prints

I doubt I need to see the prints (which I look forward to doing) to feel confident in which I would prefer. The differences between film and digital images can be quite fundamental, no matter how much is done to them in post. The capture is not the same, so we should hardly be surprised.

I can understand the immense irritation he must have faced. I made several trips to India with between 40 and 80 rolls of film (UK-Dubai-Delhi-Varanasi) and it was very stressful, especially when dealing with high speed film. I cannot imagine having to deal with dozens of airports with perhaps 500 rolls of film. No matter how much I prefer the results of film, subjectively, that amount of stress is cannot be waved away.

Agreed. I've made 30+ trips to south and central america since 9/11, and it is a PIA to travel through security with film, through multiple legs. And, that was only a 'hobbyist's' amount of film, in far fewer flights than Salgado must endure.

I would think, though, that a person of his stature/significance might have found a way to pre-ship film to his various destinations. Do UPS/DHL/et al x-ray packages? How do film manufacturers get film through the distribution channels?
 
I doubt very much that that was the point.
And, I also disagree with the foundation of your argument. "Liking Salgado" isn't necessarily about the subject matter of the photographs. It's a complete aesthetic, that includes both the content and the style with which the photographs are executed. And when one is less moved by one component or the other, the entire work is less appreciated.

There are quite a few photographers I 'idolized' up until they went exclusively to digital capture. Their eyes may be the same, and the subject matter may be the same, but the character of the work is decidedly not the same. I would suggest that if a person is not particularly attuned to that aspect of photography, there may be something lacking in their own images.

As well, it works from the other side. I have been a 'fan' of Elliott Erwitt for a while. He's an old friend of my design mentor and former employer. I had a few of his books before I ever saw an exhibited print of Erwitt. I went to the show in NYC last year, and was blown away by the huge prints from those 35mm negatives. And, indeed, the grain and character in those prints gave me a much greater appreciation for those same images I had known from the books.

I can understand your point of view, but to me, content and framing are a lot more important than whether a digital or analog camera was used. That said, there are many photographers who exploit film's attributes so much so that it would be hard to imagine them ever getting the same feel from digital. That said, maybe I feel his work holds up in digital form well enough.

I saw the EE show as well and thought that books translate the spirit of the images just as well. I see a difference between a print and a book, but my days of worshiping grain are over and I'm not enamored with size for size sake. EE's photography wiould be beautiful even as 4x6" prints IMO.

Perhaps I was being a little bit of an ass, but I just don't like it when people tend to focus on small technical aspects of images instead of what really matters. Great photography is great photography.
 
I just don't like it when people tend to focus on small technical aspects of images instead of what really matters.

As usual here on RFF, this thread boils down to some photographers' belief that a silver print from a film negative "means" something different than an inkjet print from a digital file vs. other photographers' belief that that difference is merely a "small technical aspect."

There doesn't seem to be a lot of point in either side trying to change the other's mind. (Not that pointing that out will change anything here!)
 
I can understand your point of view, but to me, content and framing are a lot more important than whether a digital or analog camera was used. That said, there are many photographers who exploit film's attributes so much so that it would be hard to imagine them ever getting the same feel from digital. That said, maybe I feel his work holds up in digital form well enough.

I saw the EE show as well and thought that books translate the spirit of the images just as well. I see a difference between a print and a book, but my days of worshiping grain are over and I'm not enamored with size for size sake. EE's photography wiould be beautiful even as 4x6" prints IMO.

Perhaps I was being a little bit of an ass, but I just don't like it when people tend to focus on small technical aspects of images instead of what really matters. Great photography is great photography.

I don't think we're that far apart. My point is that even 'small' details may be what takes a piece of work from 'nothing' to 'monumental' in a viewer's eyes. That's what 'art' is all about. I'm not at all suggesting that Salgado's modern images aren't worth viewing. I'm saying that i can completely empathize with the original post, that suggests that the digital stuff might be 'less magnificent' than the film stuff.

And, re: Erwitt — as i was saying... i've loved his stuff, from the small repro size of the books — but the large exhibition prints were significantly more grand and impacting. In that particular instance, the grain and texture improved the presentation for me. It didn't 'make' the image, since i had liked those same pictures before i saw them larger than 5" x 7".

"Great photograph is great photograph." With this, I disagree. There are certain photographers i've followed who have images i love, but if those same images were made digitally, and did not have the same texture (grain), i would not like them. At all. There's a guy calling himself "Vardana" on flickr, who shoots with a Leica SLR, and push processed negative film. The look he gets is what draws me to those images. If they were shot with a dSLR and left grainless, those same compositions would be of zero interest to me. Take Ralph Gibson. He made his career on a certain aesthetic. Tri-X and Rodinal. Take that away, and you have an entirely different set of photographs, and who knows how I'd feel about them.

To me, the character of an image is as important as the content, in many cases. An analogy is if you visited a museum, and the paintings no longer had brushstrokes. Some people stand back from a painting and take in the wholeness of it. I do that, but then i also look at it very closely, and those strokes are a part of what makes painting interesting and compelling to me. Not everyone sees or thinks of things the same way.

I don't see this discussion as being very different from the ones about bokeh. I cringe when i read some 'photographer' saying that he's only concerned about what's in focus in his image. I don't quite understand how you can ignore anything within the frame you are presenting. Hey - what matters to me doesn't have to matter to anyone else. But, i'm certainly going to judge a piece of work by my own criteria — not his.

When you say "small technical aspects of images" aren't tremendously relevant, we do need to understand in which context we're speaking. In the realm of photojournalism, i might agree. But, i don't feel Salgado's work is 'limited' to that field. We're talking about artfully conceived, captured, and printed works. Exhibited. In that context, the technical and aesthetic details perhaps should be critically important.
 
As usual here on RFF, this thread boils down to some photographers' belief that a silver print from a film negative "means" something different than an inkjet print from a digital file vs. other photographers' belief that that difference is merely a "small technical aspect."

There doesn't seem to be a lot of point in either side trying to change the other's mind. (Not that pointing that out will change anything here!)

I don't think we're necessarily talking about that at all. Some people may be prejudiced against a digital print, but unless we're talking about collecting, i'm not sure, in a practical sense, how this matters. What i gleaned from the original comment was that the viewer was less impressed by the modern work, and that the real film grain was a part of the experience. Either because that was what he knew and/or expected, or because he actually finds film grain to be beautiful and a significant part of why he liked Salgado's early work.

Which makes complete sense to me. Salgado's early images were rich with grain. Changing that does seem to change the images. The same man created them, but the work is nonetheless different. I love Richard Avedon. I do not, though, like his large format color work. I love Peter Lindbergh's 35mm film work more than his Pentax 67 work, and MUCH more than his Hasselblad H digital work. Same with Steven Meisel, who had an easily recognizable signature and shot most of his career with a Pentax 67, among other film cameras. Now that everything is digital, i do not even recognize his photographs from anyone else's.

This doesn't have to be a discussion of snobbery. Although, as a collector, I would be far more likely to buy a silver print than an inkjet.... But, that's not related to what i might enjoy viewing in a gallery.
 
I don't think we're that far apart. My point is that even 'small' details may be what takes a piece of work from 'nothing' to 'monumental' in a viewer's eyes. That's what 'art' is all about. I'm not at all suggesting that Salgado's modern images aren't worth viewing. I'm saying that i can completely empathize with the original post, that suggests that the digital stuff might be 'less magnificent' than the film stuff.

I'm not going to pretend I can't see a difference. I just can't think of one example where someone's work went from monumental to nothing because of a switch to digital. One disclaimer would be that both mediums were used for a similar project. Sure, sometimes when it is a completely different project someone can assume it's all digitals fault that things aren't as "good." However, generally it just tends to be the project just isn't as good.

And, re: Erwitt — as i was saying... i've loved his stuff, from the small repro size of the books — but the large exhibition prints were significantly more grand and impacting. In that particular instance, the grain and texture improved the presentation for me. It didn't 'make' the image, since i had liked those same pictures before i saw them larger than 5" x 7".

Great photography is great photography. :angel:

"Great photograph is great photograph." With this, I disagree. There are certain photographers i've followed who have images i love, but if those same images were made digitally, and did not have the same texture (grain), i would not like them. At all. There's a guy calling himself "Vardana" on flickr, who shoots with a Leica SLR, and push processed negative film. The look he gets is what draws me to those images. If they were shot with a dSLR and left grainless, those same compositions would be of zero interest to me. Take Ralph Gibson. He made his career on a certain aesthetic. Tri-X and Rodinal. Take that away, and you have an entirely different set of photographs, and who knows how I'd feel about them.

In my other thread that you responded to, I stated "That said, there are many photographers who exploit film's attributes so much so that it would be hard to imagine them ever getting the same feel from digital." I guess I just feel SS does a great job in both film and digital. Where as seeing Daido Moriyama, William Klein's (NYC) and Takuma Nakahira's work without the grain and blur would most likely not be as powerful. I think we are agreeing... just not on SS.

To me, the character of an image is as important as the content, in many cases. An analogy is if you visited a museum, and the paintings no longer had brushstrokes. Some people stand back from a painting and take in the wholeness of it. I do that, but then i also look at it very closely, and those strokes are a part of what makes painting interesting and compelling to me. Not everyone sees or thinks of things the same way.

I agree about painting... but I just don't think photography needs to have grain to be good. It's just not the same to me. Then again, I like silkscreens and stencil art so maybe painting doesn't need to have brushstrokes.

I don't see this discussion as being very different from the ones about bokeh. I cringe when i read some 'photographer' saying that he's only concerned about what's in focus in his image. I don't quite understand how you can ignore anything within the frame you are presenting. Hey - what matters to me doesn't have to matter to anyone else. But, i'm certainly going to judge a piece of work by my own criteria — not his.

I think what people mean is that some people concentrate on bokeh instead of what is in focus. It's the same way I feel about grain. Some people concentrate on grain instaed of content. I'm into photography, so I can appreciate a beautifully grainy photo and a smooth bokeh, but I truly feel content and framing trump these aspects of photography generally speaking. To me, these are the foundations of photography. Bokeh and grain are by-products of a process.

When you say "small technical aspects of images" aren't tremendously relevant, we do need to understand in which context we're speaking. In the realm of photojournalism, i might agree. But, i don't feel Salgado's work is 'limited' to that field. We're talking about artfully conceived, captured, and printed works. Exhibited. In that context, the technical and aesthetic details perhaps should be critically important.

Well, SS' processing is very heavy handed (and not in a bad way), so it IS important. I never said that it wasn't. I'm just saying that his work holds up whether it is done with film or digital. It's just great photography period.
 
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Which makes complete sense to me. Salgado's early images were rich with grain. Changing that does seem to change the images. The same man created them, but the work is nonetheless different. I love Richard Avedon. I do not, though, like his large format color work. I love Peter Lindbergh's 35mm film work more than his Pentax 67 work, and MUCH more than his Hasselblad H digital work. Same with Steven Meisel, who had an easily recognizable signature and shot most of his career with a Pentax 67, among other film cameras. Now that everything is digital, i do not even recognize his photographs from anyone else's. ...

This might just be the critical point of the level of technical perfection that has been reached with nowadays digital cameras. The reproduction is so close to reality, that the "room for personal character" of the individual given by choice of film, developing and printing melted away.

White balance or profiles, standardized pp software, calibrated monitor, using printer with standardized paper profiles etc. will all ultimately lead to a very similar result where the differences of a personal workflow are diminished.

My take on grain :
Reality does not have grain. Grain is just embedded in the minds of certain viewers as the characteristic technical feature of classic photographs older than themselves. Therefore these do have historic relevance and the (too) short conclusion they make:
No grain , no (historic) relevance.

This clearly is a polarizing issue. For me it's just a personal preference which I don't care too much about.
If the technical aspects get more important than the content and framing of the photo, then it doesn't do anything for me. They are part of the overall artwork, yes of course but they only play a small role in the context.

Btw:I have not had a chance yet to visit a Salgado exhibition and see his prints "live" especially the film vs digital area difference. But I will do if there's a show around in the area.
 
I have a copy of Steve McCurry's book "The Unguarded Moment." I think his classic work is powerful.

In the book, the scanned Kodachrome is most powerful for me. I don't know if its the grain, the deeper blacks, or the richer (but not more saturated) colors. The digital images fall flat for me (and you can extrapolate which ones by the dates, but you can see the difference). They aren't as dramatic. They are technically perfect. This is in a large-format book, not prints of course.

This is NOT a digi vs film rant at all. I just think his film prints have more depth, more character, and evoke more feelings. Then again, could it be that his new work is just a repetition of his older work?

I think if you want to project absolute reality, shoot (and print) digitally, in color. It is possible to recreate reality on the page, or on the wall.

If you want to project your subjective vision, or personal reaction to a scene, then b&w, film grain (natural or added), under- or over-exposure, high contrast--whatever you can think of--can enhance the message you're trying to convey.

As in all aspects of photography, these are just personal opinions of mine 🙂
 
I have a copy of Steve McCurry's book "The Unguarded Moment." I think his classic work is powerful.

In the book, the scanned Kodachrome is most powerful for me. I don't know if its the grain, the deeper blacks, or the richer (but not more saturated) colors. The digital images fall flat for me (and you can extrapolate which ones by the dates, but you can see the difference). They aren't as dramatic. They are technically perfect. This is in a large-format book, not prints of course... There

This is NOT a digi vs film rant at all. I just think his film prints have more depth, more character, and evoke more feelings. Then again, could it be that his new work is just a repetition of his older work?

I think if you want to project absolute reality, shoot (and print) digitally, in color. It is possible to recreate reality on the page, or on the wall.

If you want to project your subjective vision, or personal reaction to a scene, then b&w, film grain (natural or added), under- or over-exposure, high contrast--whatever you can think of--can enhance the message you're trying to convey.

As in all aspects of photography, these are just personal opinions of mine 🙂

The world has become known to us visually, especially in the past five or six years, so even if Kodachrome is brought back and Steve shot with it, the images will not have the same magic as in the past. His images of the last K64 roll is a good example.

Photography has run out of subjects. Tibetan nomads, Afghan girls and other typical subjects that Steve explored, they have all been photographed extensively.

The main challenge of photography today is, what to photograph.. Film and digital debate is just a symptom of that larger disease.
 
Can't wait to see Salgado's current show when opportunity allows at some point this year. Really enjoy his work, but the lushness of tones that drew me to his work originally, I do not find there in his digital work alas. I don't find his subject matter any less powerful, thought-provoking or inspirational, and know Salgado is not in the pretty picture making business, but think even he would have to admit if less people are drawn to his work for any reason, aesthetically or otherwise, it means less exposure/ impact for his work.

I am hoping his digital prints/ printing technique improves, or at least improves over the digital images I have seen of his (his Amazon sub-Genesis project), but for me the jury is still out on his current aesthetic with digital.
 
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