Schneider-kreuznach Xenon 1:1,5/50 . Any info?

[AleG]

Hi! My name is Alessio and I came from Italy. I bought couple week ago a strange lens:
Schneider Kreuznach 50mm f1.5 in leica screw mount (see attached photo). I write also in leica-camera forum and they give me some interesting and important information (thanks to Luigi Bertolotti and other users) about this lens but I would like to know more. If anyone has any information please give me!
Now, I haven't a rangefinder to try the lens, nor a mirrorless to mount the lens.
In web there no information, very few photo of it!
Thanks you very much, I love to have information about lenses, their history etc..

 

[sevo]

It was actually Leitz made (from the mid thirties to around 1950), but under a Schneider patent, and hence Schneider name. Apparently not that popular among Leitz themselves as they had to pay license fees, so it saw little active marketing, but initially they had no own lens that fast. Google Leica-Xenon for more information...

 

[AleG]

It was actually Leitz made (from the mid thirties to around 1950), but under a Schneider patent, and hence Schneider name. Apparently not that popular among Leitz themselves as they had to pay license fees, so it saw little active marketing, but initially they had no own lens that fast. Google Leica-Xenon for more information...

Thank you! So, you believe that it has the same optic scheme of classical Leitz Xenon?
Unfortunately I have not been able to try it 🙁
I read the story of Schneider Xenon patent sold to Leica to get a fast 50mm. So it's just the same lens under different body?
It has also Duroptan Scheider coating. From the serial number it was made in 1948/1949

 

[sevo]

Chances are that it is a post war version of the Leitz Xenon. It has a different barrel finish than the pre-war Leica Xenon, appears to be coated, has a mm engraving and is not in the published range of (pre war) serials. And there is no real likelyhood that it is something else or a conversion, there was no other f/1.5 Xenon in Leica thread mount, and indeed there were few other f/1.5 Xenons at all. If we exclude much later lenses from the sixties on (which would not be in such a relatively old aluminium barrel), I can only find the pre war cine Xenon and some obscure military recording version, which both would have had a cm inscription, so they cannot be the source for a conversion into that lens (unless we assume the front ring to be fake, in which case it might be anything, even non-Schneider, non-Xenon type).

FWIW, it might actually be that the post war version (or at least some range of them) was made by Schneider - that would explain that the coating can be identified as a Schneider type.

 

[Dralowid]

I know very little about this topic but I thought the Xenon and Summarit patents belonged to Taylor, Taylor & Hobson?

 

[raid]

I love reading about unusual 50mm lenses from the past. I have never used a Xenon.

 

[sevo]

I know very little about this topic but I thought the Xenon and Summarit patents belonged to Taylor, Taylor & Hobson?

H.W. Lee of Cooke (later TTH) held the original symmetric six-element double Gauss patent, so TTH will have had their share in any license deal for double Gauss derivates until 1944 (it appears that they were granted licenses for the Schneider derivates as a compensation, at any rate they built lenses with the Schneider patent number on them). But Schneider (or rather, their designer, Tronnier) held a separate patent for the (derived) seven-element Xenon with split rear.

After the war, things will have opened up - all German patents were voided, the TTH patents were past their expiration period, so Leica were free to sell the Summarit on their own. But apparently that only started in 1949, while Xenons continued to be made up to about 1950. I find no conclusive sources to the relation between the post war Xenon and Summarit - Schneider and Leitz had always cooperated amicably (and were united in their dislike of Zeiss), so they probably had some deal running.

 

[sanmich]

Are you sure it is an ltm (39mm) mount?
none of the Leitz Xenons look like that.

 

[Luddite Frank]

It was actually Leitz made (from the mid thirties to around 1950), but under a Schneider patent, and hence Schneider name. Apparently not that popular among Leitz themselves as they had to pay license fees, so it saw little active marketing, but initially they had no own lens that fast. Google Leica-Xenon for more information...

So, if it's Leitz-made, does that mean Leitz's infamous soft glass was used ?

 

[AleG]

Oh how many replies! Thanks you all!
So, I'm not an expert of Leica and its history and I'm glad to read these hypothesis and information. Other lens similar to mine are these:
http://www.auction2000.se/auk/w.Object?inC=WLPA&inA=14&inO=403
http://www.auction2000.se/auk/w.Object?inC=WLPA&inA=13&inO=292
At the end of second page:
http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00Gt11?start=10

I also founded a Tom Eitnier photo of this lens from this forum but I haven't the link anymore 🙁

However, none of these links can give me information about it.

I attach other photo of my lens (and the case):

 

[sevo]

Oh how many replies! Thanks you all!
So, I'm not an expert of Leica and its history and I'm glad to read these hypothesis and information. Other lens similar to mine are these:

These are pre-war (or wartime) as evident by the cm engraving - yours is mm engraved and post war by serial and coating as well. But obviously both the Schneider naming and that barrel type dates back longer than I thought, and existed in parallel to the silver barrel Leitz Xenon engraved ones. Maybe they had an agreement that both would make them (perhaps for different markets)?

 

[AleG]

Interesting. So do you think that this Xenon was produced for different market of Leitz Xenon in parallel production? Is possible that this 50mm xenon was produced in parallel with Summarit 50/1.5 (introduced in 1949, similar year of production of this schneider)? Maybe they introduced mm when summarit 50mm was presented. Is possible also that summarit was produced by schneider too? Maybe with schneider's coating..
I'm just inventing 😀

 

[raid]

Could it be a hack job?

 

[AleG]

It seems original. If u see older Schneider kreuznach xenon 5cm you will note some little difference but they are very similar. I don't think it i
s fake :/

 

[sevo]

Interesting. So do you think that this Xenon was produced for different market of Leitz Xenon in parallel production? Is possible that this 50mm xenon was produced in parallel with Summarit 50/1.5 (introduced in 1949, similar year of production of this schneider)?

Hard to tell. I have no data that "Leitz Xenon" labelled lenses were made at all between 1940 and the Summarit introduction, Thiele only knows of serials until 1939, and while the Leica Taschenbuch claims a longer production (to 1950), that lacks details and might refer to the Schneider ones. It might be that Schneider simply took over entirely at some date in 1939.

 

[AleG]

Thanks for your help. If I'll find any informations, I'll post here 🙂

 

[Mr_Flibble]

I recall reading somewhere that most Schneider-Kreuznach Xenon 50 f/1.5 lenses were manufactured in the first year of production. And all were sold and serial numbered in batches of a few hundred every year until 1948.
I'm not sure where I came across this info. It might be from the Collector's Guide or here on RFF.

 

[AleG]

I found these link here in RFF

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2034447

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1433140

thank you! So it seems that this lens was produced until 1948 for US market

 

[AleG]

One thing I don't understand: has it the same optic scheme of Xenon Leitz/Summarit? it seems quite smaller than they.. Or not?

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Brian Sweeney had both of them apart and said there is a bigger difference between the two than just the coating.