JuJu
Well-known
Business is slow again, I will be really bored if I don't come up with some day dreaming projects to work on. It's an LCD screen-less digital M this time. Like using a film camera, you don't get to see anything before developing the negatives. Yep, THIS is totally defeating the purpose of a digital camera. But what if there are people who are willing to trade LCD for a slimmer body? or maybe there are ways to dial in the settings without it? anyway, I totally suck at words, please see the chart for my thinking process. I will look forward for any sorts of comments and use them to refine the design. Thanks in advance and stay cool! 
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"Yeah, I'm sure it will handle nicely, but it's fugly..." Hahahaha
Looks very cool, but I'm a chimper these days.
Looks very cool, but I'm a chimper these days.
JuJu
Well-known
lol, thanks, John.
I am a chimper too.
The biggest flaw of LCD-less design is that you will find out your lens cap was on when you are in your digital darkroom...
I am a chimper too.
The biggest flaw of LCD-less design is that you will find out your lens cap was on when you are in your digital darkroom...
dave lackey
Veteran
I am not a chimper and never have judged the image I have taken with the screen on any Nikon DSLR I have owned and used for the last 11 years.
Forget the M9, just take a Barnack and plug in the X1 guts with no menu screen, etc. and run with it!
Forget the M9, just take a Barnack and plug in the X1 guts with no menu screen, etc. and run with it!
JuJu
Well-known
Forget the M9, just take a Barnack and plug in the X1 guts with no menu screen, etc. and run with it!
That's cruel!
Good to know Non-chimpers do exist
dave lackey
Veteran
Cruel? Nah...the M9 is just about perfect IMO...a little duct tape on the back and you'll never chimp again.
Who the hell wants to put on reading glasses to look at a screen too small to tell you anything and the goofy menus, well, they ain't on my M3. Just give me a simple tool that works and let me take pictures, mang! BTW, I like your sketches, keep on working on it!
Who the hell wants to put on reading glasses to look at a screen too small to tell you anything and the goofy menus, well, they ain't on my M3.
Just give me a simple tool that works and let me take pictures, mang! BTW, I like your sketches, keep on working on it!ZlatkoBatistich
Established
That little screen is one of the best things to happen to cameras since the invention of photography. For generations, film photographers could only dream of seeing results that quickly. Now that we have it, we want to get rid of it? Not me. I want the screen to be better. No, I want the screen to be exquisite. I would never buy a digital camera without one -- wouldn't even want to borrow such a camera.
mto'brien
Well-known
cool project. two suggestions i can think of: add an M3 advance lever that cocks the shutter, gets rid of motors inside and quiets it down (looks bada$$ too) and a histogram that shows on the top LCD or in the vf. The histo wouldn't have to be very hi res, just enough to tell if yer highs are blown. Again, cool project man.
edit: that iso dial where the rewind knob usually lives is a great idea.
edit: that iso dial where the rewind knob usually lives is a great idea.
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CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
This is fun. I like the voice-controlled "HC-B" mode.
I gotta say... the "chimping" term is the worst thing to ever happen to the digital photography forum. It just gives the arrogant photographer another pellet for his gun. It was cute the first time someone said it, but it's a juvenile argument against LCD review.
1. The only people who don't think they can learn something from seeing what they just did are narcissists who just can't acknowledge their own imperfection.
2. LCD review is no different from what professional commercial photographers have always used in the past 40 years: Polaroid proofing. The only difference is you no longer have to wait 120 seconds with models, grips, editors and art directors waiting, or while the artfully prepared soufflé withers under the lamps.
3. People who don't bracket, crop, or shoot multiple frames are essentially saying they always do it 'right' the first time. I can't recall, though, ever being impressed by the photographs of such people. But, they are legends in at least one person's mind, i suppose.
Apologies for the rant, and i'm not referring to anyone in this thread (yet). It's 104-degrees here. "At lower temperatures, people are easy-going. Over 92, it's too hot to move, but just 92 - people get irritable!"
I gotta say... the "chimping" term is the worst thing to ever happen to the digital photography forum. It just gives the arrogant photographer another pellet for his gun. It was cute the first time someone said it, but it's a juvenile argument against LCD review.
1. The only people who don't think they can learn something from seeing what they just did are narcissists who just can't acknowledge their own imperfection.
2. LCD review is no different from what professional commercial photographers have always used in the past 40 years: Polaroid proofing. The only difference is you no longer have to wait 120 seconds with models, grips, editors and art directors waiting, or while the artfully prepared soufflé withers under the lamps.
3. People who don't bracket, crop, or shoot multiple frames are essentially saying they always do it 'right' the first time. I can't recall, though, ever being impressed by the photographs of such people. But, they are legends in at least one person's mind, i suppose.
Apologies for the rant, and i'm not referring to anyone in this thread (yet). It's 104-degrees here. "At lower temperatures, people are easy-going. Over 92, it's too hot to move, but just 92 - people get irritable!"
greyelm
Malcolm
My Fujifilm X100 having a hybrid viewfinder means that most of the time the back LCD is turned off. Menu options can be seen in the electronic viewfinder and if you need to chimp you can view the shots in the EVF. If this hybrid VF was incorporated in your fantasy M9 then the LCD could be dispensed with.
JuJu
Well-known
Cruel? Nah...the M9 is just about perfect IMO...a little duct tape on the back and you'll never chimp again.
Who the hell wants to put on reading glasses to look at a screen too small to tell you anything and the goofy menus, well, they ain't on my M3.
Thanks for your comments, Dave.
I am just wondering if there's a way to make M9 simpler. It's impossible to be M3 kinda simple, but it's the goal.
That little screen is one of the best things to happen to cameras since the invention of photography. For generations, film photographers could only dream of seeing results that quickly. Now that we have it, we want to get rid of it? Not me. I want the screen to be better. No, I want the screen to be exquisite. I would never buy a digital camera without one -- wouldn't even want to borrow such a camera.
Points taken. Thanks. This idea was intended to co-exist with normal M models, not to replace them. Maybe it'll appeal to some weird customers.
Thanks, Matt, yeah, why not go old school altogether?! An M3 style film advance lever will be nice. Then Tom A can build rapidwinder for digital Ms! M9's shutter sound is actually quiet, it is the motor that gives it away. Histogram on top LCD panel idea is great, thanks again.
Points taken, thanks! English is my third language, and I just got to know what "chimper" means from Wikipedia
I thought it's kind of cute... I hope no one was offended...It's 101ºF here in NYC, feels like 113ºF according to Yahoo
Hey! that's true! That makes the screen-less design more possible. Thanks!
@all: Thanks so much for your idea & comments, back to drawing board now
krötenblender
Well-known
I like the idea and was very surprised to see something similar to what I have been thinking about lately.
My ideas was not to skip the display completely, but to replace it with a very thin electronic paper. Most settings and image control could be done through the viewfinder, if it has a possibility to overlay the image just like the X100 does. I would even consider live-view for those, that want it, via bluetooth on your smart phone or webpad.
The electronic paper display at the back would be good for convenience stuff, such like more complex settings, that you do very rarely, or for displaying DOF-tables for attached lenses, battery and images left and stuff like that. Since it needs no power for displaying (only for changing display contents), it does not cost much battery.
Of course it can be used to control images in BW, but that would not be it's main purpose. But I have a great slogan for that:
Our display doesn't have pixels, it has grain!
I think, 50% of RFFlers would buy one...
My ideas was not to skip the display completely, but to replace it with a very thin electronic paper. Most settings and image control could be done through the viewfinder, if it has a possibility to overlay the image just like the X100 does. I would even consider live-view for those, that want it, via bluetooth on your smart phone or webpad.
The electronic paper display at the back would be good for convenience stuff, such like more complex settings, that you do very rarely, or for displaying DOF-tables for attached lenses, battery and images left and stuff like that. Since it needs no power for displaying (only for changing display contents), it does not cost much battery.
Of course it can be used to control images in BW, but that would not be it's main purpose. But I have a great slogan for that:
Our display doesn't have pixels, it has grain!
I think, 50% of RFFlers would buy one...
You don’t need White balance if it only shoots raw, so that is one less thing to worry about.
Lenses are also detected with the 6Bit coding.
Lenses are also detected with the 6Bit coding.
ChrisN
Striving
Need some form of histogram display for feedback on exposure. Can the top display do that?
umcelinho
Marcelo
sorry for the somewhat straightforward comment, but why not get a black paper and cover the lcd as a flap? it works just the same as an lcd like the r-d1's, and it makes the camera chimping-proof. the only setting you need to change that uses the lcd is iso, right? and that's not a setting one changes that often while shooting... it's silly, but i'd give it a go.
it's cool to wonder how things can be improved, but it's a niche inside a niche still...
btw, the "turn on hcb mode" joke made me smile
it's cool to wonder how things can be improved, but it's a niche inside a niche still...
btw, the "turn on hcb mode" joke made me smile
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ZlatkoBatistich
Established
I do like the idea of independent dials for ISO and exposure compensation. Maybe ISO doesn't have to be a menu item. The little Canon G10 has a nice ISO dial.
gavinlg
Veteran
This is a great study! I love the concepts and flowcharts - really enjoyable.
I have to echo that I wouldn't buy a digital camera without an LCD screen. Using a histogram for instant feedback on exactly where the exposure is, is very very important for me. Especially when working with external lighting.
I have to echo that I wouldn't buy a digital camera without an LCD screen. Using a histogram for instant feedback on exactly where the exposure is, is very very important for me. Especially when working with external lighting.
arthurq
Member
I have been picturing that exact same camera in my head for years.
http://www.nikonweb.com/nasaf4/
well, maybe a BIT smaller.
http://www.nikonweb.com/nasaf4/
well, maybe a BIT smaller.
250swb
Well-known
A screenless digital camera so you can get back home and find you missed as many shots (focus off, bad composition, poor exposure) as when you used a film camera. That would make for a nostalgic experience, you could once again talk again about the one that got away, rather than the one you didn't try hard enough to get.
Sometimes I wonder if Leica's don't bring out the worst in people, where simply owning the camera is more important than the quality of the photographs, where polishing the camera and bragging about photographic purity is more important than getting out the door with it. And a screenless Leica fits right in that bracket. My time is valuable, I don't get enough of it to go out with my camera, so when somebody invented the LCD so less of my time was wasted I didn't see fit to kick them in the nuts, I more or less stopped using film.
Removing the LCD is just negative ambition, making a camera less productive for the sake of form. If you don't want to look at the LCD don't, put some black tape over it, it will cost less than a whole new camera, and you can re-create the warm glow you get when you discover you missed focus on your best shot after a weeks work, or a four hundred mile drive, or a significant occasion in your life
Steve
Sometimes I wonder if Leica's don't bring out the worst in people, where simply owning the camera is more important than the quality of the photographs, where polishing the camera and bragging about photographic purity is more important than getting out the door with it. And a screenless Leica fits right in that bracket. My time is valuable, I don't get enough of it to go out with my camera, so when somebody invented the LCD so less of my time was wasted I didn't see fit to kick them in the nuts, I more or less stopped using film.
Removing the LCD is just negative ambition, making a camera less productive for the sake of form. If you don't want to look at the LCD don't, put some black tape over it, it will cost less than a whole new camera, and you can re-create the warm glow you get when you discover you missed focus on your best shot after a weeks work, or a four hundred mile drive, or a significant occasion in your life
Steve
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gavinlg
Veteran
A screenless digital camera so you can get back home and find you missed as many shots (focus off, bad composition, poor exposure) as when you used a film camera. That would make for a nostalgic experience, you could once again talk again about the one that got away, rather than the one you didn't try hard enough to get.
Sometimes I wonder if Leica's don't bring out the worst in people, where simply owning the camera is more important than the quality of the photographs, where polishing the camera and bragging about photographic purity is more important than getting out the door with it. And a screenless Leica fits right in that bracket. My time is valuable, I don't get enough of it to go out with my camera, so when somebody invented the LCD so less of my time was wasted I didn't see fit to kick them in the nuts, I more or less stopped using film.
Removing the LCD is just negative ambition, making a camera less productive for the sake of form. If you don't want to look at the LCD don't, put some black tape over it, it will cost less than a whole new camera, and you can re-create the warm glow you get when you discover you missed focus on your best shot after a weeks work, or a four hundred mile drive, or a significant occasion in your life
Steve
I'm tempted to put that whole block of text in my signature and keep it there for eternity. Perfectly written - Thanks.