Seagull 203 6x6 Best folder I ever had

[Zopkuni]

Hallo,
I have a Seagull 203 folder ( 6x6) from 1975.

technical info here:

http://www.blende-und-zeit.sirutor-und-compur.de/thema.php?board=2&thema=9


Bought it new old stock still in box back in 1995 (Hong Kong)
The 203 is awesome. It is actually easier to carry in my pocket than an Agfa Isolette....
The Seagull with wind lever is easier to use and from the optical quality (see my Yemen / Sanaa travel shots) also pretty much the same as a Agfa Super Isolette, Mamiya 6, Zeiss Super Ikonta, Ansco Super Speedex, Iskra, Mockba 5, Certo 6 etc. etc.
Still quite cheap to come buy, the Seagull 203 is a true sleeper.
Few people realize the quality of a well adjusted not worn out
203, its a great everyday shooter with allmost Zeiss quality.
(Just watch out for a good one and NEVER change the
aperture when the trigger of shutter is tightened....this will jam the Compur licence shutter...
The seagull anastigmat 3,5 / 75 lens elements were imported from eastern Germany and only assembled in Shanghai, so the lens is a true performer...

Please watch my results:

I used one in Yemen to great effect. It was a lot of fun to use, and most importantly, it was easy to carry around. If I've done this properly, you can see some of the shots I did with it here:

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=seagull&w=18102095%40N00

If you have any specific questions, I'll try to answer them the best I can...

best regards

i.t.

 

[Zopkuni]

Here are some further high quality shots of the Seagull 203, a friend of mine
made in China:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/seagull_203/pool/

This camera makes great sharp details and a nice bokeh....love it.
My Iskra, Rheinmetall Welta (1Q super quality east German Zeiss Tessar lens !) and Mockba 5 isnt quite up to this wonderfull balance...
You wont find a nicer everyday folder 6X6 if you find a good 203 with well adjusted
rangefinder. Beware of worn out or damaged (Shutter/ trigger problems due to misoperation ) examples.

http://hsuotto.blogspot.de/2007/01/203-1.html

best regards

i. t.

 

[raytoei@gmail.com]

thanks for sharing... i have always thought of seagull for 6x6 tlr but this is interesting.

 

[Zopkuni]

Seagull factory was built by German Carl Zeiss Jena

Seagull factory was built by German Carl Zeiss Jena

Hi,
no Shanghai optical factory built any type of camera (and military optics), the earlier ones from the cold war aera are the better ones, if you consider buying a chinese camera, always buy the old types,

I prefer the 4b1 Rolleicord copy

http://photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00JtsN

http://www.lomography.de/photos/cameras/3315419-seagull-4b

this is the older simpliefied version with manual film transport and the great HAHIOU 85 lens, this is the most contrasty lens, its similar to the anastigmat lens from the Seagull 203 so they make equal good photos and they have the vintage bokeh if you like that, the later Seagull Rollei copies with lever transport are built from cheaper materials and tend to fail....the older are made for professional asian street photographers (simpler is better)
the more comfortable with lever transport are consumer stuff, so avoid these....

Best thing ever came from China was the 203, the folder is so damnd flat when folded, you cant believe it without seing it...
It´s more flat than a pocket camera....superior in ergonomic to most other folding 6x6. and that thing operates silent and smooth...
Same advise here, buy one older version with METAL FILM TRANSPORT LEVER they are the professional stuff, the later consumer ones with plastic transport lever still are good but the older one has the better finish.

Here you can see de difference:

Very first SHANGHAI 203 version from 1962 (these are the very best!!!) but they are only available in China from communist party members (Superior Quality Control made with several Carl Zeiss Jena parts)

http://www.novacon.com.br/odditycameras/chinese%20012_arquivos/image010.jpg

The later street photographer Version from 1968-1980:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5149/5682009556_19e32aa44d.jpg

Seagull 203 full metal version (thats my version) still very smooth operation but made with more chinese parts....LENS STILL MADE WITH GLASS from Carl Zeiss (!) They are good, try to get a new old stock one or one with CLA!!

The last edition for consumers 1980-1995, lens still good but not at the same level as the older ones (Sometimes equiped with Japanese licenced lenses but made in China, so there you can find excellent sharp ones and others that make softer prictures...so its a gamble ;-) These are inexpensive so you can try several ones....)

Seagull 203 - I (Watch the black plastik lever!)

http://www.corff.de/Klappkameras/Bildmaterial/Seagull.jpg

There is a nice US Export version too,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/heritagefutures/7660674672/
called Texer SR its a quite good one from the MK3 Series, these underwent a better export OEM quality control compared to the plastic lever version for the domestic asian "tourist-?" market so the chance is good you find a sharp one (Japanese Minolta Lens elements) Avoid ones with defects caused by unexperienced people.
NEVER change the aperture control when shutter is cocked
NEVER EVER ;-) A single time of doing this might / or will damage the Compur.

So you can often read the Seagull cameras have defective shutters or aperture controls.... okay people should read the manual book before using the camera ;-)
Than such a Camera lasts for 30 Years...

 

[Zopkuni]

Here you can see a nice MK1 metal Seagull or Shanghai 203 in Operation
( Comunist Party Photographer Operation)
during a red meeting in the 70s:

http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/-shanghai-camera-club-carl-purcell.jpg


If you have a good 203 you dont need another camera ;-) Its pictures are nice
and the bokeh is yummy.

 

[oftheherd]

Nice photos in that first set. The next took too long to load and seemed to be causing too much activity on my computer so I shut it down. But I enjoyed the photos of Yemen.

 

[Sejanus.Aelianus]

I owned a 203 for a while and I found it to be a good design, poorly executed. I especially liked the viewfinder and rangefinder, which I found to be as good as my Fuji 645W.The problems I found lay in the mechanics, which seemed badly made and poorly assembled.

Perhaps an enterprising company will re-issue the 203, built to modern Chinese standards. That would give the new Fuji a run for its money!

 

[Zopkuni]

Well there are different versions of the 203, the consumer ones with plastic lever (maybe those were made for the tourists?) tend to be less well made than the red Mao party and Street-photographer version with metal lever ( late 60s / 70s version.) Best one of all those china folders
is the 60s MAO party SHANGHAI 203 made with lots of east german Zeiss parts the bright combined rangefinder was also designed by Zeiss Jena because the russians refused to sell the Iskra Patent to China.... (Chrustchov and Mao didnt like eachother and the only great Japanese 6x6 folder the Mamiya Six still was in production so the Japs also refused to sell their patents to China)

The second version "Seagull 203" is made with less Zeiss delivered or premanufactured parts but still with Zeiss polished import Glass lenses,
third 203 version (203-I) has a semiocre
"japan import" or "chinese made lenses"...some are good some are bad.
You will have to try. Some people say the last plasti lever version had a minolta Lens. (Thats the better one of the last version, some have No Name Lens elements
those may suck..)

Funny things can be found in the bay, some people sell maladjusted second / third / fourth hand seaguls and the new owners think the cameras are bad right from factory, if you wanna lough please read this story, they also tell how to fix the problems:

http://nelsonfoto.com/SMF/index.php?topic=3926.0

Yeah some previous owner has "tuned" the front element of the lens for taking strange "close ups" but he didnt tell it to the new owner...so he never got sharp pictures and was of the opinion the lens always is unsharp....he was wrong.

In fact there are silksweet operating Seagulls and cruder ones.
TLR Seagull go for the 4B Version of the 70s with Haiou 85 its excellent!
And if buying the 203 get a Version with metal lever if possible, "the earlier the better"!
Best buy: A New Old Stock 203 so nobody has junked the shutter or changed the Lens adjustments to strange DOY close up experiments...

Myone works like a German Agfa very precisely and silk sweet.
The shutter is so silent!

 

[Zopkuni]

I found an interesting recommendation by an old AGFA and Zeiss technician;
Because the Chinese engineers copied the Compur maybe this is also correct when using the seagull cameras with leafshutters...I am sure many defects were caused by unexperienced Compur users:

"In the early Compur shutters, the fastest shutter speed should be set before the shutter is cocked otherwise the shutter can be damaged."

Here on this German Agfa page you can find this great hint:

Bei den frühen Compur-Verschlüssen, sollte die schnellste Verschlußzeit eingestellt werden, bevor der Verschluß gespannt wird, da sonst der Verschluß beschädigt werden kann.

http://www.schnittbildindikator.de/Kameras/Agfa_Isolette/Agfa_Isolette.shtml

 

[Zopkuni]

This is my new old stock boxed 203 from the early 70s

This is the package of an early 1980s Version of the 203
(Still the metal lever version)
these came with PVC eveready case
my older 70s Version without but in yummy orange cardboard box
with golden Seagull logo (love the chinese "baroque" design of the older package!)

but the older ones are the better ones ---the older, the more german parts inside ;-)

 

[Zopkuni]

The good ones look like this

 

[Zopkuni]

The very best ones look like this, (notice the different brand-logo)
these 1960s Shanghai 203 are predecessors of the later Seagull 203,
superior crafted machines, because they were intended for the press and
propaganda photographers of Maos party. (Largely made with help of Carl Zeiss Jena from socialistic eastern Germany)

http://www.pbase.com/nickdemarco/image/115900536.jpg

Notice the excellent rubberized bellows! These last 4ever!

 

[V-12]

Thank you for posting, very interesting

 

[Zopkuni]

Here you can compare the sizes of an Iskra 1 from USSR, Shanghai = Seagull 203 and a non rangefinder Zeiss Ikonta folder.

Quite tiny the little chinese girl in the middle, I am sure its the tiniest 6x6 coupled rangefinder folder ever made

 

[Zopkuni]

Survey of Seagull 203 versions:
Later ones with plastic lever have no LVSmarkings but an hot shoe in Version 203 Ia
and a cold shoe in version 203 Ib, the oldest one is the better (more expensivly) made machine, it has an x contact connector for flash but no shoe. No problem for me...

 

[sevo]

(Largely made with help of Carl Zeiss Jena from socialistic eastern Germany)

Unlikely. It is a obvious Agfa Super Isolette descendant/copy. The USSR previously had already done something similar, the Iskra. Zeiss, whether east or west, never had any input in any of them - nor will they have been involved in the Chinese copies (which were only made after the Sino-Soviet relationship had turned sour).

The Shanghai/Seagull 203 has quite a few significant differences - smaller size, rapid wind lever, different counter system, other rangefinder arrangement, so it is not simply built off Iskra (nor Agfa) plans.

 

[Zopkuni]

This link will bring you to a PDF copy of the 203 instruction manual booklet,
print it out and put it to your camera its valuable.
The RF Calculator is intersting and it works if your lightmeter is lost or still at home.

http://www.cameramanuals.org/pdf_files/seagull_203.pdf

 

[Zopkuni]

I know from ex Zeiss employees the there was a close cooperation between
them and Shanghai Optics. Here you can read something about that matter of fact:

Carl Zeiss Jena transferred many pieces of technology to Chinese optical industry in earlier days, believe me the 203 maybe an Agfa copy but the knowhow HOW TO MAKE IT came from Zeiss plus many parts in the older
Shanghai and early Seagull cameras.

http://www.novacon.com.br/odditycameras/chinese%20017.htm

Beijing 608 factory was one of the projects assisted by the big socialist family including GDR. Carl Zeiss Jena transferred technology to Chinese optical industry in earlier days, so these optics were built according to Zeiss standards. Civilian products may have some short-cuts due to cost. But military and professional equipment's quality were much superior.

 

[sevo]

Carl Zeiss Jena transferred many pieces of technology to Chinese optical industry in earlier days,

Carl Zeiss Jena never built cameras. Zeiss Ikon Dresden (later Pentacon) did - but their folders division had been in Stuttgart (in Western Germany), and they never set up a Dresden rangefinder folder production after 1945.

Zeiss Jena do not appear to have transferred much to China in that period either - at any rate, the Chinese did not license any post war Zeiss Jena developments until the seventies (when the GDR/Chinese relations had improved again, and Zeiss Jena exported tools and consulting to China - the socialist counterpart of Zeiss Oberkochen supplying Yashica with tools and computations after lens building in Europe had grown unprofitable). Of course, Chinese companies could access the pre 1945 Zeiss Jena lens patents that had been public domained by the Allies. But so could anybody - it is a moot point that pretty much every triplet or four-lenser made globally after 1946 was Zeiss Triotar/Tessar derived.

 

[Zopkuni]

Well youre right, but Zeiss GDR including Pentacon gave the Chinese optical industry much help and parts, I know that from an old Zeiss veteran.
Russia refused doing so because Chrustchov had a clinch with Mao...

P.S. wasnt the Werra compact / rangefinder camera built by VEB Zeiss Jena?

http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Werra