Seeing outside the frame

[Bill Pierce]

“Seeing outside the frame” Sounds sort of like spiritual guidance, but until relatively recently it was the way that many, perhaps most, photographers viewed the images they were about to photograph. Until the SLR showed up, the sportsfinder on a 4x5 Speed Graphic or the bright frame finders on 35mm and roll film cameras probably outnumbered the image only finders in view cameras and twin lens reflexes. Indeed, when the first popular SLR, the Exacta, appeared, it was derided as a “close up camera used by dentists.” Indeed, it was. But its use went considerably beyond that. And the SLR soon eclipsed the Zeiss, Leitz, Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Kodak cameras with bright line finders that let you see outside of the picture frame.

Seeing what is outside of what the final image will be isn’t imperative, but it’s very useful. And yet there are few contemporary cameras with that feature. Obviously, Leica M’s… And the Fuji X100 and X Pro series offer both bright line and TTL views. Another answer is the Leica Q2 with its fixed 28mm lens. It is possible to set it up so that the viewfinder shows the frame lines for 35mm (or 50 or 75) view within that wider 28mm frame. The camera delivers a full frame 28mm frame of view and a cropped jpg. The full frame raw file is 47 megapixels, but cropped to a 35mm equivalent, it’s still 30 megapixels. At 50, 15 megapixels… It’s not a bright line finder, but it offers the same advantage. It should also be said that the Fuji X100 V can provide the same bright line and TTL viewfinder feature for crops to 50 and 75mm equivalents.

But among the modern digitals, that’s about it for the cameras that let you see beyond what will be framed in the final image. I hope I’m wrong and other forum members will correct me. But I’m in the midst of bright line melancholy. I’ve mentioned that I used to use Leitz bright line finders even on SLR’s. But those are now prohibitively expensive and it appears as if many of the more affordable (and often as good) Voigtlander finders are being discontinued. Sometimes with some cameras and some lenses (very few) it’s possible to work with both eyes open - sort of. OK, not really… What’s somebody who wants to see more of the world, well, at least outside the frame to do?

Any thoughts or suggestions are much appreciated.

 

[Dogman]

I'm afraid the EVF has put the kibosh to the bright line finder. Sadly. But the fact is very few photographers these days care much for OVFs and even fewer understand the uses for bright line finders. Newer photographers have grown up with video and video games, watching video screens daily. Their understanding of the world is a video image of it. I don't see that changing. Those of us who like to see the "real world" subject that we are photographing will have to either get used to it or hang onto our older cameras with viewfinders that lack video until they pry them from our cold, dead hands. Me? I've bought several X-Pro1 and X-Pro2 bodies and even more Nikon DSLR bodies. Got lotsa lenses to fit them both.

 

[Larry H-L]

I use optical view finders on both rangefinders and small mirrorless cameras, I guess it is the uncluttered view that appeals to me. Shooting with both eyes open with a 55-58mm lens on an SLR/dSLR/EVF is pretty cool, it results in an almost perfect stereo view.

 

[Rayt]

Sounds romantic. I have read about attributing “seeing outside the frame” as a benefit to using the M but in actual practice that only works if you are shooting a 50mm or longer focal length or with both eyes open with an M3 or shifting to an external finder. Who can see outside of anything with a 35mm on an M6? I can see the bloody lens hood covering a quarter of it. Can’t a good photographer see outside the frame before putting the camera to the eye?

 

[Bill Pierce]

Sounds romantic. I have read about attributing “seeing outside the frame” as a benefit to using the M but in actual practice that only works if you are shooting a 50mm or longer focal length or with both eyes open with an M3 or shifting to an external finder. Who can see outside of anything with a 35mm on an M6? I can see the bloody lens hood covering a quarter of it. Can’t a good photographer see outside the frame before putting the camera to the eye?

There are a lot of times when you are shooting news, documentaries or even street photography or your pet dog, situations you have no control over, where it is important to keep your eye on the viewfinder and be ready to shoot. And at the same time it is an advantage, sometimes an extreme advantage involving personal safety, to be able to see what is happening outside the frame without moving the camera from your eye. That’s fairly obvious. What surprised me was how useful it was when I wasn’t covering news situations. Would you believe I actually prefer a bright line finder for brightly lit, totally static sunny day landscapes.

As to how much out of frame territory you get in a bright line finder - as you say, it depends on the focal length. but with the early X Pros and the X 100’s you get a useful amount with a 35mm equivalent if you don’t wear glasses and can get your eye close to the finder. The Q2 set to a 35mm length does even better.

 

[Doug]

Sean Reid seems to favor seeing outside the frame, and the argument makes sense. While I'm not the photographer that you and he are, SOTF has never been important to me. (to take on a Sean Reid habit of making acronyms!)

For many years my only RF camera was an M2 with mainly a 35 Summicron, and I've never been able to SOTF with that combo; indeed I cannot even see all the inside of the 35 frame at one glance. More recently I got a goggled 35 Summaron, and frankly it is great to easily see the whole 35mm frame at once. But I don't seem to pay attention to what may be going on outside that frame, maybe long habit. And being more used to my Spotmatics and their successors. I'm content to see the scene before bringing the camera (briefly) to my eye.

 

[kshapero]

I live by it. Seeing outside the frame is very important to how I shoot. Using a rangefinder achieves this.

 

[Hilmersen]

This is the reason why I use rangefinders myself. With fixed lenses I can somewhat predict the outcome - so not that important for static shots. For situastions where things are moving in and out of the picture it is very important. It would be really nice to have it when using zoom lenses on a dslr/evf.....

 

[Ricoh]

It’s worth listening to Joel Meyerowitz, about the frame and what you put in it. It’s like magnetism. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...=Xumo7_JUeMo&usg=AOvVaw3vJunNCrDSfi71R029UfbK

BTW, what Leica is it in the video, M9 M240?

 

[Archlich]

Got my new iPhone and shockingly, there's a View Outside the Frame option in Camera settings.

Kudos to technology.

 

[jankap]

Beyond the viewfinder there is one eye left, with very wide coverage.
A viewfinder has a lot of disadvantages, one of them is the cost.
No company has chosen for a larger sensor, that could deliver a framed picture and give a wider view outside (LCD, EVF). That would cost more, but no customers have asked for that.
So outside the frame seeing is superfluous?

 

[zuiko85]

Wire frame finders? I mean as a cheaper solution to seeing outside the frame. Just cannot see the justification of optical bright line finders that cost more than any camera I’ve ever bought. How about those plastic finders in single use cameras? Couldn’t they be made in several angle of view selections to a somewhat higher standard and sold for under $30 each as viewfinders. If they weren’t so silly expensive perhaps more hobby photographers would be encouraged to see the advantages of a non TTL view of the world.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Bill OVF is just one of the reason I shoot with Leica M now and left the DSLR world some years back and I know others that feel the same way.

 

[jankap]

I have no zoom lenses, but zoom lenses give a wider view too.

 

[JoeV]

Olympus makes a very affordable and sufficient quality finder for 4:3 aspect ratio cameras.

 

[zuiko85]

The Olympus VF-1 has been discontinued for some time as far as I know. Still available used and perhaps NOS somewhere.

 

[Godfrey]

It's been more than 50 years since the TTL/SLR viewfinder has been the dominant way one looks through a camera.

I've never found "seeing outside the frame" to be a meme of any particular value to my use of a camera due to the viewfinder type. When I want to see past the frame boundaries, I simply open my other eye if I'm using an eye level TTL camera. It's simply not a big deal at all.

G

 

[zuiko85]

Just looking on ebay I see some plastic finders for either 28mm or 35mm for $20, shipping included. Looks kind of like what I was asking about. Might be tempted to try the 28mm finder but already have several made up from single use cameras.

 

[Ricoh]

It's been more than 50 years since the TTL/SLR viewfinder has been the dominant way one looks through a camera.

I've never found "seeing outside the frame" to be a meme of any particular value to my use of a camera due to the viewfinder type. When I want to see past the frame boundaries, I simply open my other eye if I'm using an eye level TTL camera. It's simply not a big deal at all.

G

Joel was talking about street photography, and in context it’s a game changer. Some people are collectors, others, perhaps in the minority, prefer the ephemeral relationship in the frame (to half quote Meyerowitz). It’s good to have foresight of what’s about to enter the frame.

 

[Godfrey]

Joel was talking about street photography, and in context it’s a game changer. Some people are collectors, others, perhaps in the minority, prefer the ephemeral relationship in the frame (to half quote Meyerowitz). It’s good to have foresight of what’s about to enter the frame.

... I just open my other eye to see outside the viewfinder view. Easy.
I do shoot a good bit of street.

G