Self Censorship: Our Worst Enemy

In general, on the internet, a negative comment can be amplified in the mind of the recipient into an egregious insult. I'm not sure why that is.

So basically, it's a good idea to never leave negative comments on someone's photo.

Personally, I consider an absense of any comments to be the same as a negative comment.
 
People interested in giving and receiving photo critique can give it and get it in the style of post that Ray PA began. (5 participants, theme or no theme) Anyone can begin such a thread, and the first 5 people are in.

Photo criticism, unless the reviewer is tallented/trained to provide, is very "iffy" IMO. A good photo is in the eye of the beholder, rather than some objective standard. Everyone has an opinion.
 
Thanks for an interesting thread Ruben. Here's a critique of your photo: it should show the scooter's wheels to be good. Otherwise we have to guess or be told it's a scooter.
I comment in the tone of old photojournalism instructor who was harsh, terse, unsympathetic and the best teacher I ever had. She would hold up our prints one by one in front of the whole class and figuratively tear them to shreds, or praise them, with brief to-the-point comments.
"This one is crap. There is nothing interesting happening here."
"This is horrible. You can't see the face!"
"This is garbage. What kind of story are you trying to tell?"
Etc. When students would try and defend their work with the old "I meant to..." or "I was trying for..." she would cut them off and say something like "keep trying until you get it. You can't hand in a try to an editor."
Of course this kind of criticism was specifically for newspaper photography but I believe it works just as well for street photography.
I wonder how many RFFers could handle this style?
I agree with many of your points Ruben. I think many members could stand to benefit from harsher self-editing and some more constructive criticism, including myself.
I don't think the categories you suggest would be of any benefit. I think it's up to the individual to decide where he/she fits in and accept any praise or criticism according to what they believe their own skill level to be.
Bottom line, I think anyone wiling to post their images in the gallery should also be willing to accept any kind of criticism in good spirit.
 
the problem with it is not something you had control over Ruben, the angle of the man’s arm, the girl’s arm and elbow, and the top of the triangular plastic bag all conspire to focus the viewers attention on the yellow handlebar, away from the subjects faces.
I assume you cropped from the sides to arrive at that image, it’s hard to see what else you could do given the speed you have work with that type of shot, you were just unlucky with the subject.

regards
 
photogdave said:
.....Bottom line, I think anyone wiling to post their images in the gallery should also be willing to accept any kind of criticism in good spirit.
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The problem is not at the picture posting level, but in us upon seeing the images and writing or not our comentaries. We avoid "trouble", we hide our feelings, we join the crowd chorus. We don't dare to express our feelings out of a false fear to hurt, and by the end account we betray ourselves and castrate our artistic potential. Not each of us is going to be an artist, but all of us can create.

Perhaps we need to learn how to be able to pin point both sides of what we see in a single pic. But how could we possible learn it if we are afraid of our own shadows ?

Yes, we have had some heavy tonged folks, but most of us are experienced and civilized members, able to orientate ourselves, but just afraid. My good fellows, this is called conservatism, aging, permature death before the physical one.

Self censorship is the worst censorship of all.

And let me be unambiguous. I am not mooving anywhere else. I trust you and myself that sooner or later we will be clever about the issues here exposed, me included.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
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Ruben,

There is a difference between saying: "This photo is a piece of crap. Why embarass yourself here." and between offering an honest crititique that is not positive in nature. I would accept the second but not the first approach.


example from the gallery: "absolutely insignificant image of a familiar moment of autor, no composition, no care." This commenter then went on, adding an attack on the gallery as a whole by stating that only friends are cheerleading. It ended with "It is much sad and depressing".

This was not withing a critique session of a posted image.

All I could comment on this comment was "get a life".

The above illustrates a personal attack for no reason at all. The commenter could have stuck to critiquing the image and not start an attack at the way gallery photos are being commented on and then end it with "depressing". When we have a few RFF members with such insensitive and reckless attitudes onboard, I fully understand how some people become gallery shy.

The problem is how do you 'teach" a few isolated adults some basic rules of commenting so that people stay awsay from person insults and instead offer some constructive criticism.
 
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antiquark said:
There's a difference between self-censorship and being polite!
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Yes, there should be.

It takes a thick skin to ignore isolated insults and continue active contributions to the gallery or certain image rich threads.
 
Ruben, this is a true story.

Many years ago, at school, I was very good at history and greatly encouraged by a wonderful teacher, Mr Taylor. Later Mr Taylor was replaced by Mrs Boss, another fine teacher, with a totally different approach, based on constant criticism. Her comments made me change my style, probably to my considerable advantage.

A decade later I remembered this experience when I was teaching at university. I had a student with a terrific appetite for work and enormous potential, but whose work was undermined by her approach. I praised her, but pointed out these problems as gently as I could. I was sure this would be an enormous help, but instead I will never forget her face as I spoke - her pain and sense of betrayal were agonising.

She never recovered her confidence and I have never ceased to regret that I did not pursue a different approach - one based on her needs, not my preconceptions. No one on this forum is an idiot. Everyone has instant access to the masterworks of photography. No one can be ignorant of the defects in their own pictures. Advice is one thing, but let's tear our own pictures apart before we start pointing at others, because the one thing that really does "betray ourselves and castrate our artistic potential" is the smug assumption that we know best.

Cheers, Ian
 
Well said, Ian.
I recall falling into the trap of being "too smart" in critiqueing someone's photo in a critique session, and she/he was very clear in expressing her/his dismay about my crtiqueing approach. Basically, I said that "I don't like it" or something similar to this phrase. I really did not like the image, but it was the wrong thing to say. I should have taken a different route to express my view. [sorry Ms. X/Mr. X]


I learned a lesson. This is what life is about. We learn and make use of the new knowledge [hopefully].
 
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I think it depends on your POV. If you're talking personal photography, which I think you are Ruben, then you should always shoot to please yourself first and foremost. Applause and positive commenting, while a nice thing can also be misleading, and lead you astray from shooting to please yourself (for yourself). If we trust the applause of the general mass that show up on places like Flickr, and we let that aesthetic steer us, we would all end up making the same photograph.

Critiquing is a whole other issue. Regarding Gabriel's statement about buddy-system critiquing, I think this is really what you want to establish. You want a group of individuals who are willing to look at your work and comment honestly, very much like a classroom or photo-group setting. These should be people you "know" and whose opinion and aesthetic you know. I value the critique and comments of many of the photographers on RFF, because I see their work, know their work and know where they are coming from.

Probably some of the worst buddy-system critiquing can be found on Flickr, where commenting becomes almost a competition. It can be downright ridiculous to see how some photographers can accrue almost 100 comments before the photo is a day old.

Perhaps the approach or mentality when posting photos should be "this is what I'm doing right now. this is where I'm at photographically/artistically," instead of "here's a photo do you like it?"


.
 
M. Valdemar said:
The view count is a pretty good indicator of public acceptance of your work.

Of course, a photo of a naked woman will rack up thousands of views, no matter what the quality.

With the rise of the internet, we have tens of millions of daily self-published images, blogs, writing, etc etc.

Most of it is increasingly illiterate and incompetent.

What the internet sorely lacks is a strong cadre of editors. I'm not so sure that the ability of the hoi-polloi to freely express and publish itself is a good thing.
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so true
so true
so true
so true
so true
 
Jocko said:
I doubt that self-censorship is really our worst enemy, but I am sure that self-criticism is our best friend. No-one could critique my work more harshly than I do, and the same must be true of any serious photographer. A positive comment is not simply a gift an.d reassurance - it is a message to ourselves, because what we admire in the work of others is that which is lacking in our own. Thus such encouragement is genuinely useful to all concerned.

RFF reminds me of classical Athens - a few people of exceptional merit rise to prominence, but everyone is ultimately equal. Indeed, as in ancient Greece, those who aspire to tyranise the polis end up ruling a kingdom of one. We have no teachers, prophets or oracles. We are all learners, and from my experience in education I would argue that fraternal praise tempered by modesty and self-knowledge does more good than all the critiques on earth.

Cheers, Ian.
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Extraordinarily well said, Ian!

When I started lurking on RFF it was for technical information. Then I went out and practiced, practiced, practiced. And I continue to practice. When I post a photo it is to say "here is what I can do with this lens/film/subject today." You can be sure that what you see was what I intended - even if you don't see it the way I did. The focus (or lack thereof), composition/cropping, contrast (or lack thereof), even that annoying flare from the light source - all were deliberate. My choices, whether you agree with them or not. I am capable of reasonably informed criticism of others' work, but it is only meaningful in the context of my own development. To share this criticism would serve no purpose for the person whose work is being criticized - at best it would be "sound and fury, signifying nothing"; at worst it might be self-aggrandizement.

I contribute to the forum simply to share my journey with others making a similar trip. Many here are ahead of me, and I will never catch up, but the occasional "attaboy" is welcome.

- John
 
Hi Ruben,

thank you for this thread! I apologize in advance for my very poor english language.

Self-criticism and self-censorship at my personal (foto-) work is the reason why you can`t find a single shot from me in the gallery.

There are some fotos I am proud to have shot them. The issue is that they are telling little stories. How can you crit one of them without any knowledge about the background. But I can not write an article to each of them.

As sitemistic mentioned above, some are taken under very very poor light conditions, they have motion blur or flare from frontlights. So technically these pics are bad, but together with the whole story they are really good. But you don`t know the story.

My way to get critiques is to ask a very honest friend, a former newspaper fotog about his opinions. If he don`t say "that`s crap" in his very harsh way, I know the picture is good.

I agree with the most of your points, but it is really hard to crit someones fotos without any information about his intents.

Cheers
George
 
raid said:
Ruben,

There is a difference between saying: "This photo is a piece of crap. Why embarass yourself here." and between offering an honest crititique that is not positive in nature. I would accept the second but not the first approach.


example from the gallery: "absolutely insignificant image of a familiar moment of autor, no composition, no care." This commenter then went on, adding an attack on the gallery as a whole by stating that only friends are cheerleading. It ended with "It is much sad and depressing".

This was not withing a critique session of a posted image.

All I could comment on this comment was "get a life".

The above illustrates a personal attack for no reason at all. The commenter could have stuck to critiquing the image and not start an attack at the way gallery photos are being commented on and then end it with "depressing". When we have a few RFF members with such insensitive and reckless attitudes onboard, I fully understand how some people become gallery shy.

The problem is how do you 'teach" a few isolated adults some basic rules of commenting so that people stay awsay from person insults and instead offer some constructive criticism.
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Hi RAID,

I truly thank you for the great example you provided. Such kind of offense is not only a personal one on you, but through you an offense and attack towards RFF as a whole.

Any attack at RFF taking abuse of our freedom of speech is to be pinpointed publicly enabling us all to deliver our strongest "get a life", this time in a chorus.

Kindly follow the next:

Hi JOCKO,
I can understand YOU, after having such a bad experience. I too, after a road accident stopped driving at all.

But I have here to distinguish between my unfortunate experience at the road, and the question of weather am I going to forbid my children to drive. As you understand I will do my best for making them the best possible drivers. Simultaneously I reserve for myself my own right to respect my own feelings and not drive anymore.

If you follow on this thread some commentaries made about my mentioned picture - this is exactly what I am talking about we all need more of.

Instead of that, we seem to sleep and are indifferent when we see an image of other member we feel it doesn't merit our "hurrah". We are sleeping and sleeping. We just awake at the stadium when we hear the "hurrah" of the crowd.

There is no need to remind we all MUST be polite. Furthermore, I have sent here and there, some PMs to other members explaining them whay their words my be hurting. This mutual help should be overtaken by all of us, before moderators find the need to intervene.

So what do we want ? do we want RFF to be a warm bed to sleep after work ?
Or do we want RFF to be an unprecedent tool of open heart speech, learning, discussion, mutual help and respect, and progress ?

Cheers,
Ruben
 
You always express, succinctly, the essence, J.

I dared to post an image to one of Ray PA's (excellent) critique threads several months ago, and was devastated by one persons reaction in particular. I won't deign again. Ever.
I am my own worst critic at the best of times - sharing one picture out of every fifty I carefully scan - and negativity cripples my confidence and my creativity.
 
raid said:
example from the gallery: "absolutely insignificant image of a familiar moment of autor, no composition, no care." This commenter then went on, adding an attack on the gallery as a whole by stating that only friends are cheerleading. It ended with "It is much sad and depressing".

This was not withing a critique session of a posted image.

All I could comment on this comment was "get a life".

The above illustrates a personal attack for no reason at all. The commenter could have stuck to critiquing the image and not start an attack at the way gallery photos are being commented on and then end it with "depressing". When we have a few RFF members with such insensitive and reckless attitudes onboard, I fully understand how some people become gallery shy.
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i wouldn't take such an attack personally. his frustration was clearly directed at the gallery commenting culture at large, which is saturated with vapid, tranquilizing praise. rude attacks like that are the other side of the same coin. my guess is that if he saw a photo he liked, he wouldn't be able to say anything intelligent about it either.

i agree with the idea that we should be able to indicate what kind of photographer we are and what kind of comments we'd like on a certain photo. it's not just a matter of skill level, but also ambition.
 
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aizan said:
it's not just a matter of skill level, but also ambition.
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It is also, more than anything else, a matter of vision, and who are we - REALLY - to criticise the way another perceives his world?
 
we're all people?

first and foremost, good criticism is based on good understanding. who doesn't want to be understood?
 
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